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The Great Debate: In-Person vs Remote Employees

Episode 54

Episode Overview

Are the bosses back in charge now? And which is better: in-person vs. remote employees?

On this episode of the Hire Calling Podcast, Pete and Ricky are inspired by an article from the Wall Street Journal to discuss the power struggle between business leaders and employees. The article explains how leaders are learning new ways to conduct business now that the pandemic is over. But Pete and Ricky agree there’s a large contrast taking place right now between the companies choosing to make their employees come back into the office and those who aren’t. 

Throughout the episode, the two discuss the pros and cons of each side, making it clear that there’s no perfect answer. They share some important considerations that all leaders should review before making this decision and agree that finding a balance from both a production and retention standpoint is key. 

What’s best for your business? Tune into this episode and find out!

42 minutes

View transcript

Things to consider before requiring your employees to come back into the office:

  • It’s a business decision that will impact your ability to attract and retain employees. Depending on the industry and type of business, there’s a good chance some of your competitors won’t make it a requirement. Be prepared to deal with the fallout from it.
  • The pandemic proved positions could be successful out of the office. If these roles could be and have been done remotely, that flexibility aspect will be expected. Whether they work in the office or remotely, the ones who put forth the most effort are the ones who are going to achieve the best results.
  • Some employees need to be on-site, whether they acknowledge it or not. Many individuals would benefit from the structure and oversight that comes with being in an office to stay focused. Nobody wants to be micromanaged, but it’s almost a necessity for some portion of the workforce. 

Additional resources

Pete Newsome

About Pete Newsome

Pete Newsome is the president of 4 Corner Resources, the nationally acclaimed staffing and recruiting firm he founded in 2005. His mission back then was the same as it is today: to do business in a personal way, while building an organization with boundless opportunities for ingenuity and advancement. When not managing 4 Corner’s growth or spending time with his family of six, you can find Pete sharing his sales and business expertise through public speaking, writing, and as the host of the Hire Calling podcast.

Ricky Baez

About Rick Baez

Efrain “Ricky” Baez Jr. is a published human resources professional specializing in strategically aligning HR competencies to business goals with a down to earth, common sense approach. Ricky is a four- year veteran of the United States Marine Corps and holds a Masters degree in Human Resources (MHR) from Rollins College and an SPHR certification from the Human Resources Certification Institute. Ricky is also a faculty member for the Master of Human Resources program at Rollins College in Winter Park, Florida.


Pete Newsome  00:03 
You’re listening to The Hire Calling Podcast. I’m Pete Newsome. And I’m joined again by Ricky Baez, Ricky, I don’t know why I even say it that way at this point because you’re here with me almost every single time. 

Pete Newsome  00:14
But we are your source for everything hire, staffing, and recruiting and we are back on a not-so-beautiful Friday morning in Central Florida today. It’s a little gloomy.

Ricky Baez  00:26
It is gloomy and to talk in, you’re right, I’m, I’m here almost every week now. Do you think now I can stop signing in? I can maybe get an ID card to plug in like anybody else has to run this office.

Pete Newsome  00:39
Do you want to be a permanent fixture? 

Ricky Baez  00:41
I mean, I just keep signing in. I mean, I know. I know, the reception is now. I mean, her name is April. She likes flowers and long walks on the beach. And I’m kidding.

Pete Newsome  00:50
I don’t know where that’s going. But, we are here. And we are here to talk about staffing. And let’s start with the good news today. Can we do that?

Ricky Baez  01:00
Let’s do that. Let’s do that.

Pete Newsome  01:01
Do you know what the good news is? Are you in the loop? 

Ricky Baez  01:04
Whoa. Is it the jobs report that just came out?

Pete Newsome  01:09
Did you see that? Were you have you been looking at my TikTok account? Ricky? 

Ricky Baez  01:15
No, I’m a big Tik Tokker, but not for information that I need is always for entertainment. 

Pete Newsome  01:21
The jobs report came out and it beat expectations to a significant degree 517,000 new workers were added to our payroll for this week. That’s a big number we averaged in the US 400,000 a month in 2022. 

Pete Newsome  01:39
And it really runs in contrast to all the layoff news that we seem to be surrounded by right?

Ricky Baez  01:47
Yeah, it does in and again, this news continues every single repeat every single week, we see more and more organizations that are you know, having these difficult conversations. 

Ricky Baez  01:57
But these job reports come out again, we talk and we call them when we first notice is what a few months ago, right? These numbers just are not adding up and they keep getting farther and farther.

Pete Newsome  02:10
To not add up, right? I mean, if you’re in the world of staffing, or recruiting, or really anything to do with hiring in your LinkedIn feed, if you if you’re active on LinkedIn at all, it probably shows what mine does, and everyone else that I talked to, it’s just a lot of people who are looking for a job right now who are unexpectedly unemployed. 

Pete Newsome  02:36
And I don’t know if that’s, you know, just sort of bias it’s created by the, we’re around a lot of people who are in recruiting. 

Pete Newsome  02:43
And we know that companies like Amazon and Mehta hired a lot of recruiters to ramp up their staff during COVID. And then they’ve ramped back down. 

Pete Newsome  02:53
So maybe, maybe we’re not seeing the full picture, but it sure looks like a lot of people are unemployed. Given those numbers, the unemployment rate went down a little bit as well. It’s down to I believe, 3.4% 3.4. I

Ricky Baez  03:07
saw earlier which I mean, again, it’s great news for the economy. It really is. But I think we are looking at this economy, we are looking at this job report through a lens that doesn’t really exist for us right now. 

Ricky Baez  03:20
Because we’re seeing it through the lens that we’re used to pre-pandemic. 

Ricky Baez  03:23
Now we’re seeing it with all these different factors coming into the workforce today because the workforce today is radically different than what it was 30 years ago. Right? 

Ricky Baez  03:34
You have more w you have more 1099 contractors than we did 30 years ago because technology is making it just that much easier. 

Ricky Baez  03:43
I think that’s also feeling, again, no data behind what I’m about to say, that’s also fueling these numbers. And we just don’t know how to cook with those ingredients just yet.

Pete Newsome  03:52
I bet they’re not if you think about what you just said, You’re these payroll numbers wouldn’t be included. I’m sorry, freelancers wouldn’t be included in these numbers. 

Pete Newsome  04:03
So it’s, it’s a bit of a mystery. And I’m not going to this will sound conspiratorial, and that’s not what I intend to do, right now. 

Pete Newsome  04:17
Go down that path, but I’m not really sure who decides these are the numbers. And I think about that every time they come out from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. 

Pete Newsome  04:29
They gathered data through some method, maybe they detail it and I just haven’t I’m going to go back and read it right. 

Pete Newsome  04:37
I believe ADP payroll contributes but you know, we’ve let’s be real. We’ve seen inconsistent data over the past couple of years in a number of different areas. 

Pete Newsome  04:51
And so, it does beg the question if we know, companies are publicly laying off in significant net First, we know, if you look at LinkedIn that there are a lot of people who are looking for jobs right now. 

Pete Newsome  05:06
So there are always a lot of people looking for jobs. But it feels and seems and looks like there’s significantly more than there was a few months ago. Do you agree with that?

Ricky Baez  05:15
I do agree with that, which again, further confused the assessment. Because just real quick, I know you said that there were those 10 that were announced will not be included. 

Ricky Baez  05:24
But I’m thinking the more 1099 as we have now, that used to be w twos before, then they’re not being included yet. That number is small. So that’s why to me, it’s, confusing, but yeah, it’s, uh, I just had to throw that in the sorry.

Pete Newsome  05:38
Well, it is just, it’s hard to see what we’re being told doesn’t, doesn’t really coincide with how it looks and feels and being in the staffing industry. 

Pete Newsome  05:56
I have lots of peers around the country, I can tell you that. Almost without exception, everyone I’ve spoken with is indicated a pretty significant slowdown in hiring. 

Pete Newsome  06:08
And I trust the staffing industry more than anyone else because this is all we do. And I was surprised, let’s just say to see, hey, great news, we added half a million jobs this month.

Ricky Baez  06:25
And right underneath layoff at this organization and layoff at that organization, right?

Pete Newsome  06:31
Now, those layoffs even though they’re public, and of course not to minimize those, when an organization lays off 5000 People that is a huge number for any individual company, and certainly a very challenging thing for the individuals who were laid off. 

Pete Newsome  06:50
But when you look at how that impacts the 160 5 million or so in the American workforce, it doesn’t really move the number very much. 

Pete Newsome  06:58
So even if you add all of those together that had been public, I just don’t think the news is shocking. But the result of it clearly Well, I’ll say clearly seems to not affect the job market very much.

Ricky Baez  07:16
It doesn’t. But you know what I’m starting to notice there, Pete, which is, which is really interesting, especially with all these two different waves and the different information versus social media right now. 

Ricky Baez  07:27
I’m starting to see that the more layoff we talk about, the more later we hear about the workforce the whole dynamic is changing. 

Ricky Baez  07:36
There are other things about the old-school way of doing things that are evolving. For example, a couple of weeks ago, you and I were talking about the best way to lay somebody off. 

Ricky Baez  07:48
I mean, we did talk about it, and whether Should we do it via zoom or email, and we went back and forth. Did you hear what HubSpot did the other day with a layoff? 

Ricky Baez  08:01
Now, I don’t know if this is true or not. I saw this on somebody else’s page. And it’s a meme. And this is actually pretty good. Pete, here’s what they did. 

Ricky Baez  08:09
So they laid off 7% of their workforce, right? And they sent out an email. And here’s what that email said, there are several things you can do. 

Ricky Baez  08:19
Obviously, the person explained what was going on, it was a video, I’m sorry, it was a company-wide email, Zoom call, explain what’s happening, what’s going on, and say, Hey, an email is gonna come out with this information. 

Ricky Baez  08:32
And it gives them a lot of really good options. It’s like severance, we will pay five months of severance plus an additional week for every year you’ve been with HubSpot for up to seven months total. 

Ricky Baez  08:43
So regardless, of how long have you been there, you’re gonna get five months either way. And a week for every year service up to you get seven months, right? 

Ricky Baez  08:52
Not many organizations do that because many organizations just start off with one week of pay for every year of service. But there are more medical benefits that will be extended through the service period up to five months. 

Ricky Baez  09:04
And equity. They’re celebrating vesting through the first of April, that was some people can actually make it in, here’s what I found interesting. Laptops and work-from-home setup, keep it don’t bother someone in the back. 

Ricky Baez  09:19
Go ahead and keep it and they’ll erase all the information through the air. And then later on, they’ll have a career support connection and your boss is gonna call you later with more information, what do you think about that?

Pete Newsome  09:33
I? What I think is that that’s great for the employees. It helps him but I can’t help but thank you. So five months, five months of severance.

Ricky Baez  09:46
Five months to start off and then a week for every year for five.

Pete Newsome  09:51
Minimum up to seven. I mean that it’s an expensive item and if you can afford to do that why not have them work? What? Yep. Right? Why not have them work for three months and see if they can get out of the hole? 

Ricky Baez  10:08
All right. So we’re there, we’re there. Because at first, I’m thinking, wow, that is really generous that now that’s a way that really is a way who to, to lighten the blow. 

Ricky Baez  10:20
But then I started thinking, that’s a lot of money. 

Ricky Baez  10:23
Like how much if they would have just taken this money, they would have spent here invest in some other efficiencies, maybe they’ll come out of the hole that’s causing them to put this plan together, to begin with, you know, I suppose, right?

Pete Newsome  10:34
Unless they’ve determined that these employees just there’s no value to those employees. I mean, but in and with technology, as you mentioned, changing rapidly. 

Pete Newsome  10:47
Yeah, I think that’s what Twitter has done. They’ve deemed this very large group of employees unnecessary to run the business. 

Pete Newsome  10:57
And look, I I think back to my, my corporate days, and there will always there always seemed to be a number of people. It was every company has this kind of running toward a joke. 

Pete Newsome  11:13
Where are you? Okay. I don’t know what these people do. Here. They just there are jobs that just exist. I mean, we we know that. But we are right. 

Pete Newsome  11:24
Yeah, the whole thing is just odd, right? I mean, we can lay off that many people. But we have the money to pay for them to not work. Maybe fiscal management hasn’t been their strength in all of this.

Ricky Baez  11:41
Or how bad was that whole? I mean, how bad was it? Because the other side of that coin is, how do we get to such a bad play that spending all this money? It’s considered, money-saving?

Pete Newsome  11:56
Innovation, right? So that’s the right so the right presumably the layoff is a cost savings measure?

Ricky Baez  12:02
Right? And so you’re going to pay all this? Why didn’t we see this happening a year ago to prevent this? Right? Why? Why do we have to be a DEF CON one wish the bad one, one, or five?

Pete Newsome  12:15
Don’t do that, to me that DEF CON, whatever. Because someone recently publicly got it wrong. It was bash, so I’m going to abstain from that conversation. Got it. Okay.

Ricky Baez  12:25
I would ask Google, but it’s yeah, she’s worse. So let’s just assume Google. So look, it from, from my perspective, from my point of view, just bringing it all back together. 

Pete Newsome  12:38
I have to stop you. Did you just call them Google as she did?

Ricky Baez  12:40
I just? Yes, I did.

Pete Newsome  12:42
Okay yeah, let’s move on from that, too. But I just want to make sure I heard you correctly, and how you perceive Google. So?

Ricky Baez  12:48
Yeah, let’s just move on. Yeah. Alright. 

Pete Newsome  12:51
Where were we? Well, we were talking about how why they didn’t plan ahead better. And I get why you wouldn’t plan ahead better. 

Pete Newsome  12:58
But I always struggle when I see these. Look, it’s very generous. It’s great. I mean, if you were an employee impacted by that, I’m sure they’re extremely thankful. 

Pete Newsome  13:10
But from a business standpoint. Yes. It’s an odd thing to do. You know, it just is now Ricky, I. I just don’t know, I don’t know how companies get to that point. Right. 

Pete Newsome  13:28
And I don’t think you do either. So we’re not gonna solve that today. Neither of us is, are in the CFO business. So we’ll move on. But yeah, weird times. 

Pete Newsome  13:39
And so that there’s an article that was produced or published in The Wall Street Journal yesterday that says the bosses are back in charge. And what do you think about that are the bosses back in charge now?

Ricky Baez  13:54
Well, here’s the thing. According to this article, again, this is the Wall Street Journal, The bosses are back in charge by Chip cutter and Theo Francis. 

Ricky Baez  14:03
So essentially, what they’re seeing is the pandemic, quote, unquote, is over. 

Ricky Baez  14:08
And now leaders and organizations are starting to learn new ways how to conduct business, but some of the leaders are saying, come back to the office, still, come back to the office, come back to the office and their pain differently. 

Ricky Baez  14:23
About a couple of weeks ago, I went ahead and put a poll on LinkedIn to ask if he was being offered, what is more, important to you. 

Ricky Baez  14:33
Is it based more than commission more than base or the flexibility to work from home and build your own schedule at 10%? Let’s have what the original offer was at. A lot of people selected that one.

Pete Newsome  14:47
I would expect most one.

Ricky Baez  14:52
I would expect not many, and not many, because what that’s going to do that’s going to make that now from an employee up from an employee’s perspective, I wouldn’t want to, I wouldn’t want to jeopardize my income just because I want flexibility. 

Ricky Baez  15:09
Now, that’s just me. I know that’s not everybody else. But I guess what I’m saying is, the more and more people do that, the more and more common is going to become. 

Ricky Baez  15:18
And now that again, just working from home is going to be one of those things that you’re going to see in the compensation package as common as HMOs. 

Ricky Baez  15:25
And it’s changing. So this pandemic, where this article is talking about, is talking about how they’re laying people off the way they’re laying people off, and how everything is being restructured and bringing people back into the office. 

Ricky Baez  15:40
A lot of the people who were laid off are folks who didn’t want to come back into the office anyway. 

Ricky Baez  15:46
So that kind of put some people on the chopping block. And that made me think because a lot of people will say, well, that’s discrimination. It’s not. It’s not right, because that’s not protected by law from an EEOC perspective. 

Ricky Baez  15:59
But this article is, it’s really interesting, because again,, it talks about the notion of this power struggle between employees and business leaders. And I don’t think there is a power struggle. What about you?

Pete Newsome  16:14
I think there is, I don’t know if that’s the right phrase but I think there’s a big contrast taking place right now, for us, you have companies that are choosing to make employees come back to the office, and you have those who are not. 

Pete Newsome  16:33
So immediately, as we’ve talked about, you just alluded to, but we talked about it in some depth a couple of weeks ago, this is a business decision, and it’s going to impact your ability to attract and retain employees. 

Pete Newsome  16:49
No question about it. Okay, so that needs to be considered. 

Pete Newsome  16:53
And then and then the NAFTA, that consideration if you decide, for whatever reason, you want your employees back, knowing that, depending on the industry, and the type of business, in the geography and all those things, there’s a very good chance some of your competitors will not make that requirement, then you have to deal with the fallout from it. 

Pete Newsome  17:15
And how you deal with it as an organization is that’s a minefield, right? Because you could take a hard stance and say come back or else. Companies are doing that right now. 

Pete Newsome  17:29
You can give them more of a warning. It’s I guess, it depends on how interested you are to retain your employees versus Correct. letting that be sort of a subtle form of a layoff, but I would suspect and make it when you like when you when there’s when a layoff is necessary. 

Pete Newsome  17:52
Downsizing is necessary. Nobody cuts their top employees. Nobody cuts their top producers. So I would, I would argue and suspect that in many cases like this, the top producers are the ones that are going to say, I don’t need to come back if I don’t want to have a problem. Right?

Ricky Baez  18:13
Correct. Because you know, from again, just generally speaking, when HR is involved in a layoff, they always say cut X percent. 

Ricky Baez  18:22
And we always focus on the bottom right course. So but here’s the thing, it’s, I understand, some leaders will say, no, I need these positions back in the office. 

Ricky Baez  18:34
But the pandemic proved that these positions can be successful, not in the office. So there’s no real rationale, somebody can argue, well, these positions need to be in the office. 

Ricky Baez  18:43
Well, no, they don’t. 

Ricky Baez  18:44
Because if they were not in the office during the pandemic, and that was too successful during a pandemic, working from home, then the need just isn’t there other than maybe the trust isn’t there, and that has got nothing to do with work and more to do with the leader or the culture of the organization.

Pete Newsome  19:00
Well, some positions do need to be on-site. Right? Some doctor or surgeon needs to be on site. Right. 

Ricky Baez  19:15
So they never worked from home during the pandemic, though, because that position cannot be done from home. 

Pete Newsome  19:20
Good point. Good point. You were never able to do it from home. That’s never a good point. That makes sense. Here’s it. Here’s what I will say based on my eye believing this strongly. 

Pete Newsome  19:32
Some employees need to be on-site, whether they acknowledge it or not. 

Pete Newsome  19:36
And I have someone in mind right now, who is a person I know who just has a very difficult time managing their own schedule and adhering to that. 

Pete Newsome  19:53
And I was just thinking about this, independently of this conversation a couple of days ago that, this person is probably suited to be in an office and would benefit from the structure and the oversight that comes with being in an office where most.

Pete Newsome  20:14
Look, I don’t think anyone wants to be micromanaged. And none of them get it, anyone wants someone looking over their shoulder. 

Pete Newsome  20:21
But for a large portion I won’t say that, for some portion, of the workforce, it’s almost a necessity. 

Pete Newsome  20:29
Do you agree? That people may not even realize that I just I mean, as someone who’s been on this planet for 51 years, and has observed a lot of different types of people, as someone who’s had a lot of different employees, as someone who’s worked with a lot of other employees and just my peers I, I was working remotely in 2004 and 2005 2006. 

Pete Newsome  20:58
And I was working for a large organization prior to starting my business and I said 2006 was not true, I started in 2005. 

Pete Newsome  21:07
But for the few years prior, and I can tell you, I could name names, which I will not have, who was remote and not. And not working, spending a lot of time doing things that didn’t involve work, and ultimately it caught up to him and they were they lost their jobs as a result. 

Pete Newsome  21:25
I’m in a situation now where I’m the last one to know they didn’t, is people in some cases, were my peers, they didn’t mind if I knew that they were off goofing around. 

Ricky Baez  21:42
Now, no one’s gonna I’m not gonna I’m the boss, I’m not going to find out if anyone gets what I’m doing right now.

Pete Newsome  21:43
That’s it. And but look, I think that stuff catches up with people, ultimately. So I don’t spend time worrying about that. What I will, my point is simply that there are people who need structure and need that kind of oversight in order to in order in order to stay focused.

Ricky Baez  22:04
So coming from somebody who now works for himself, I am in charge of my own schedule. I could not agree with that more. I mean, I really do agree with that. 

Ricky Baez  22:15
Because with me, I, it’s harder. If I knew I had to do a presentation for a CEO, I knew what I had to do, I’ll get up at whatever time I have to get up, and I will make it happen. 

Ricky Baez  22:27
Because I want to make sure I deliver I over-deliver with the services that I promised. But if it’s just me, and I’m holding myself accountable, I’m not good at that piece. 

Ricky Baez  22:38
So for me, it’s that much harder for me to do what I said to myself that I am going to do, I’m going to wake up at 7 am and do ABC 930, I’m going to do this, if it’s just me, it’s easier for me to bend that discipline than it is for somebody else. 

Ricky Baez  22:52
So to bring this back to this question to this conversation, when I had to go into an office, it was easier for me to keep to my schedule. 

Ricky Baez  23:00
So you’re 100% right when it’s just me right now, it takes us that much more energy for me to keep to the same schedule that I did before. When I was with somebody else. You’re right.

Pete Newsome  23:09
So when I my first job out of school, and I’ve told this story countless times, my first interview question for the job that I ended up getting was not much of a question at all. 

Pete Newsome  23:20
The guy who interviewed me said, we work eight to eight, and I’ve gotten this wrong for him. We get this right this time, Ricky, we work eight to eight, Monday through Thursday, and eight to five on Friday. Should we continue the interview now? I was broke. 

Pete Newsome  23:34
I had a not-so-great GPA and my degree wasn’t going to have companies lined up out the door to hire me. So I but I was motivated and driven and there was an opportunity presented to me that sounded like I could make good money. So I said yep, we should continue and there was I’m thankful to say now that was not an exaggeration. 

Pete Newsome  24:01
I was in the office every day before eight I never left before 8 pm And I most of the time I was working 70-hour weeks. 

Pete Newsome  24:01
And the work ethic that was instilled in me in a professional setting and I’m not talking about as a child or anything like that in my first professional job. 

Pete Newsome  24:20
I was working by today’s standards which sounds probably like ridiculous hours to a lot of people. 

Pete Newsome  24:27
But that was instilled in me and this has stayed with me and has allowed me to be someone who can work at home and be disciplined in fact I work more now than I’m at home and always have backed prior to starting my own business as an employee. 

Pete Newsome  24:43
I was the perfect one to work at home because I felt like my day never ended. 

Pete Newsome  24:47
I just kept that I had dinner with my wife and the kids played with them for a little while my kids were much younger mine only had two of the four that were born then. 

Pete Newsome  24:57
And I’d go back to stop around sick said go back to work around eight and I would regularly work past midnight. 

Pete Newsome  25:07
But I think of that often in, in the circumstances, because if that had not been instilled in me, from the start, if I was, like so many young people coming out into the professional workforce today, and their first real job, quote, unquote, is working at home, you’re on your own, no one’s looking over you. I mean, I didn’t like it at the moment, don’t get me wrong, I hated the guy I worked for. 

Pete Newsome  25:34
And I, you know, it was awful. It was a nightmare, in many respects, but it made everything I’ve done since seem easy. I’ve always worked with everyone as a result of that. 

Pete Newsome  25:45
And anyone who came from that organization, for any period of time, it’s a very successful company, the people I know and have followed have had a similar work ethic instilled in them, which has allowed them to succeed professionally, in many respects. 

Pete Newsome  26:01
So, I worry about a lot of the younger professionals who are just sort of left to their own devices at home, it’s not necessarily great.

Ricky Baez  26:12
I, I don’t worry as much I’m, I’m excited for them because a lot of them are in my classes right now. And I always tell them, I’m, I’m envious of this group because you get to see your world that you think this is, this is the workforce. And that might be true going forward. 

Ricky Baez  26:32
But I’m experiencing this with you for the first time as well. But my knowledge is going into the office, seeing these folks the way this is going, which don’t get me wrong, I I’m a fan of flexibility. 

Ricky Baez  26:45
But the way this is going, these folks are never going to know what it’s like to be by the water cooler than never going to know what it’s like the camaraderie that’s involved by just popping into somebody’s office as hate got five minutes to go for a walk get some coffee? 

Ricky Baez  27:00
Or what is this Morgan State smoke break? Right? This is you know who the smokers are not that I’m advocating smoking. I guess what I’m saying is, it is going to be a completely different world. I don’t worry as much about this workforce. 

Ricky Baez  27:13
Because to me, it’s they’re going to work the same towards a goal. But they’re going to use different resources that you and I had available. 

Pete Newsome  27:22
So you don’t think that we’re here? Work-life balance a lot, right? And there’s an old joke, it’s been around, I’m sure you’ve heard it from me. 

Pete Newsome  27:30
Gosh, since I was a child, you know, I don’t know who originated it was, you know, you can be successful working half days, and you get to choose the work the first half of the day or the second first 12 hours or the second doesn’t matter which, right. 

Pete Newsome  27:47
I’ve never heard that. Yeah. I don’t know who the quote is attributed to, but I kind of screwed it up. But it was, you can be successful by only working half days, and you get to choose whether you work the first 12 Or the second 12 Doesn’t matter which and the point is you’re working 12 hours, right as you’re working half day, half of 24 hours. 

Pete Newsome  28:08
And I subscribe to that. I believe that I think the more the harder you work, the more you’re going to produce and the more success you’re gonna have all other things being equal. So they of course come back as well work smarter. Well, I’m gonna do that too. 

Pete Newsome  28:23
Now, what now? What do you get for me? Right? I heard an interview on a podcast the heard podcast earlier this week, this guy was invited to Twitter headquarters to interview Elon Musk’s Dave Rubin on his podcast. 

Pete Newsome  28:41
And he flew from Florida and didn’t get to interview him. On the first day, Elon had other stuff going on. And then the next night, he went to interview him and he kept getting pushed back. 

Pete Newsome  28:54
And the interview did it ended up taking place at midnight. And as he was describing it, there were people coming in and out of Elon’s office at midnight. 

Pete Newsome  29:03
And wow, I heard that and I started to get it was invigorating to me. I’m like, Man, imagine what you can accomplish with that level of intensity and focus, right? So, anyone you know, people criticizes Elon Musk for various reasons, but his work ethic is legendary. 

Pete Newsome  29:23
And you hear that and you see yourself surrounded by other people doing that with him. You kind of go Yeah, no wonder he’s so successful. Right? 

Pete Newsome  29:30
I mean, it helps that he’s smarter than almost everyone else. But yeah, you can’t. You can’t shortcut that. You can’t replace that. Do you agree? And that’s what I was worried about when I say who because sometimes that’s what it takes.

Ricky Baez  29:44
So, I so you’re right, you can’t shortcut it. Here’s where I stop. I, I would want to know, are they walking into that office at midnight conducting whatever. They’re conducting because they want to or they feel they have to Alright. 

Ricky Baez  30:01
So if they want to be different because they’re motivated, they share the same vision about whatever goal they’re working on. Is Elon, right? 

Ricky Baez  30:09
So if they want to do that, that’s, that’s fine. But if they have a family at home, and they feel like they have to, I don’t know, is that a toxic work environment?

Pete Newsome  30:19
Oh, that word. Um, okay.

Ricky Baez  30:24
Is there a bleep button?

Pete Newsome  30:26
No, I mean, it just, it was interviewing someone helping it out there. I was there, she was someone else this week, and that that came up. 

Pete Newsome  30:33
And this was a guy who’s I don’t want to get his degree wrong. But he has a doctorate in, in, in the world of HR careers. 

Pete Newsome  30:46
And in personal development, maybe it is. But he was saying, basically, that the implication was that word is sort of a, you know, an easy go to a lot for a hard environment, a difficult environment, a stressful environment. I don’t know. I’m not trying to put words in his mouth. 

Pete Newsome  31:07
Not exactly what he was saying. But it was, you know, a toxic work environment could be where someone is using profanity, nonstop, and being derogatory and throwing things in past toxic. I mean, really, we’re working hard and long hours. Is that now toxic? 

Pete Newsome  31:23
I mean, my point is, did you the, so the other people want to be there with him? They’re choosing to be whether they or I don’t know why. I mean, everyone has the ability to turn and walk the other way. 

Pete Newsome  31:37
I assume they’re being paid extremely well, I’m assuming they realize they’re doing something that is really cool. They’re working with someone who’s, you know, just, yeah, they’re working with the richest person on the planet. 

Pete Newsome  31:50
I mean, there’s what I work until midnight right now, if you ask me, Hey, would you spend a year with him? You know, working by his side to learn from him? 

Pete Newsome  32:01
Even at my age, and you know, I’ve experienced some level of success. Hell yeah. Without a question. So, did they want to? I mean, look, I don’t know, I don’t want to talk at all.

Ricky Baez  32:14
If I didn’t know the idea,

Pete Newsome  32:17
well, but they’re probably gonna be better set for retirement than most people by the time they’re, they’re ready. So everything’s a trade-off. I do subscribe to wanting to work around telling people they should work around the clock. No, that’s not the point.

Pete Newsome  32:40
The point is, sometimes it’s necessary. And when you’re young, and you haven’t yet earned any kind of level of stature, or have accomplished anything significant. Generally speaking, the one who’s going to put forth the most effort is the one who’s going to achieve the best results.

Ricky Baez  33:00
So, okay, can I give you two quick scenarios? Scenario A, right? It’s, it’s because you said something that really stuck with me. You said that, of course, you’re not going to force people to do it. Alright, so yes, you do have, sometimes it is necessary. 

Ricky Baez  33:18
But if I’m the leader, and I say, hey, I need ABC done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, here’s what we need to do. And everybody just knows we’re going to stay late because we all subscribe to the same goal. You have an amazing team, of course, amazing team. 

Ricky Baez  33:35
But if I have to convince people to come on, can you stay Margaret? Can you stay Bobby, can you stay Mario can you do I have to have a little bit of conversation something else is going on there. So if nobody wants to stay sorry,

Pete Newsome  33:47
let me jump in. So when I was coming up my end my first corporate job, not the one, not the staffing job where I was working crazy hours, they told me to come in, but my corporate job was a cube farm and the directors didn’t leave till the VP left, it was on the floor. 

Pete Newsome  34:06
And the managers didn’t leave till the directors left and the staff didn’t leave the manager left, right. I mean, it was like ground groundhogs up and up, looking to see who was still in their office or their cube depending on their level. And that doesn’t exist anymore. 

Pete Newsome  34:21
And so you what I worry about is by default, you should be putting it in you should be grinding. I think when you’re young and trying to prove yourself and learn as much as you can. 

Pete Newsome  34:37
And that is not universal. And I think it is great that there are a lot of people who can not agree with that and that’s fine. 

Pete Newsome  34:46
But the people that I know are successful, all put in that effort at some point, right, whether it was in school, and those who didn’t do it in school, and yet figured out how to be successful I did it at a different time. And it’s easier when you’re younger when you don’t have a say, I don’t know, when you don’t have a wife and kids or a husband and kids and responsibilities. 

Pete Newsome  35:11
And, you know, there’s no better time to do it because life gets more complex. And so when I say I worry about the young professionals as a whole, I worry that their perspective on that is not there was is they don’t get that perspective when they’re exclusively working at home, that’s a very long way to get to that. 

Ricky Baez  35:39
I got what you meant. I think they’re gonna recreate it. 

Pete Newsome  35:46
I think we’re gonna they’re gonna work. Everyone’s gonna work class, right? And guess what’s down significantly over the last two years? The productivity of the American workforce is way down. And I don’t have the stat in front of me. I wish I did. But that’s not a coincidence. 

Ricky Baez  36:07
I mean, it’s we don’t have to discuss the end of the show that historically, haven’t we been working less, as technology gets more evolved and things get more efficient? 

Ricky Baez  36:19
We kind of do work less, right? Because that’s the goal we want as business owners, at least for me, and I know, it’s for you. I want to put a product out there that everybody loves and makes money but makes money with minimal effort.

Pete Newsome  36:34
Yeah. So can we I mean, look, I had in the message I give to my employees, or I’m not going to ask you to work more than 40 hours in a week. 

Pete Newsome  36:42
But I don’t mind saying if you do, you’re going to be more successful. Yeah, of course, I can’t, you know, I’m not going to be I can’t be disingenuous, but I also am not going to ask. 

Pete Newsome  36:57
Yeah, this is not a requirement I’m going to make, and wouldn’t be popular and wouldn’t be good for retention. 

Pete Newsome  37:02
People wouldn’t like it. I know that. But if you go person to person, and you look at their level of achievement, yes, some correlation therebetween and I don’t mean inside, anything I’m directly associated with just in general, right? You know, I get Yeah. Elon Musk is a registered person in the world fact. 

Pete Newsome  37:23
Elon Musk? outworks. Almost everyone I’ve ever heard of fact, right? So coincidence. Now, would he be the richest person in the world? If he worked 40 hours a week, on average, whatever he was doing? Not even close?

Ricky Baez  37:38
Yeah. I, I’m with you. 100%. 

Pete Newsome  37:42
Now you could argue and probably be right, that he may be, you know, have a happier life. He may have better, healthier relationships. 

Pete Newsome  37:50
All that may be true. I’m just specifically talking about success at work, which isn’t necessarily leading to a happy life outside of work. 

Ricky Baez  38:03
So that’s a wolf with him. He’s found his passion. So I think he is happy. I don’t think he will be working as hard as he is right now. If he wasn’t passionate about what he was doing. Right. 

Ricky Baez  38:11
So he’s first so to him. He’s not working. To us. It looks like it because we’re like, I don’t want to deal with whatever he’s dealing with. I mean, some of the money problems, he’s got a pretty okay. But it’s yes, you do have to put in that work.

Pete Newsome  38:24
So are the bosses back in charge? Ricky? That’s what we’re trying to figure out.

Ricky Baez  38:27
Are they I don’t? Yeah, let’s go back to that.

Pete Newsome  38:30
I think I think they I think it depends on the industry depends on the market. But generally speaking, I think the ship has sailed. And if you’re a company, that is going to require your employees to be on-site, just like even though I have these beliefs, I think that generally speaking, I’d like everyone to work more and achieve more. 

Pete Newsome  39:00
I mean, right? But at the same time, not going to require Yeah, so do you want people in the office sharp? Do you have a good reason for that? Maybe. But if you start requiring it, that’s different. You’re limiting yourself. Just like if I said, Hey, everyone, do you have to work eight to eight?

Ricky Baez  39:19
I mean, we win a lot more deals. 

Pete Newsome  39:21
But I don’t know that I might be alone.

Ricky Baez  39:26
You’ll be alone and they’ll need your services because that vet turnover is gonna be grand. It’s gonna be grand. So yeah, okay. Did we beat this one to death? Also?

Pete Newsome  39:37
No, no, because I can stand up a path and my old old man walking uphill both ways to and from school.

Ricky Baez  39:48
In the snowstorm and I’m getting ready to tell my kid that story.

Pete Newsome  39:55
Yeah, but, so we’ll get the productivity numbers for next week. Let’s see Let’s do that because I want to make sure that that’s, that’s on point. 

Pete Newsome  40:04
And, look, it’s and these are. These are conversations that are taking place, you know, everywhere. And there is a balance. 

Pete Newsome  40:14
And this is the last thing that I’ll say on it is between what would be best for the business? 

Pete Newsome  40:20
From a production standpoint, and what would be best for the business from a retention and employee standpoint, because, but finding that balance, which I think is kind of what you were alluding to earlier, which is, how do you create a situation employees want to do it? 

Pete Newsome  40:36
And you’re not asking, you know, like, hey, you know, and that’s what I’ve always wanted to create. And I can’t tell you that I’ve succeeded in doing so. 

Pete Newsome  40:44
To the degree that I’d like where I never have to tell anyone, when to work that everyone intuitively figured that out for themselves, like, hey, I can cut out early today or I need to stay late today. To me. 

Pete Newsome  40:56
That’s because right now, I may work crazy hours, and sometimes I do but other times, oh, today I’m going to leave a little earlier than I I’m gonna leave before five to see my son’s basketball game. I’m not going to feel bad about that, because I was working earlier this morning, I’m going to do what I need to do this weekend. 

Pete Newsome  41:18
So that’s how I’d like it to always be and that’s easier said than done.

Ricky Baez  41:22
It is easier said than done. But you know what? It’s you’re doing it in the office right now therapies. So I’ll say it right, because the four corner resource with organization, these employees, they have an option, I can either work from the office, those resources are there. 

Ricky Baez  41:38
The key is flexibility. If you give your employees flexibility, they have more time and more attitude to work on your goals. That’s what you got to do.

Pete Newsome  41:49
And we will continue to try to do the best we can at that and prove every step of the way. So alright. Next week, Ricky Hire Calling. Have a great weekend and everyone thanks for listening. Have a good one, folks. Good night.

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