Freelancing is on the rise. So, how can hiring freelancers benefit employers?
In this episode of the Hire Calling Podcast, Pete and Ricky discuss when and how you should fill staffing gaps with freelancers. A great starting point to consider is, do you have the knowledge to guide a new employee and oversee their work, or is it an area you don’t know much about and need an expert to complete the task? Turning to the freelance market may be a great solution if it’s the latter.
If you are deciding between hiring a freelancer or a new full-time employee, tune into this episode to help you determine what is right for your business!
If you’re ready to take the plunge, we recommend Toptal, Upwork, and Fiverr for the best freelance talent!
Reasons to consider hiring freelancers
- The dynamic is strictly work based, leading to stronger relationships. There are no write-ups, drama, or performance plans involved.
- There’s less baggage. You won’t have to jump through legal hoops to separate employment. Both parties have the option to decide if and when they want to end the relationship.
- They have the knowledge you need but don’t have. Freelancing can be a great option to gain that expertise you desire to possess.
- Freelancing offers flexibility. While it’s not for every scenario and should be done selectively, consider your situation. If you only need one thing done at a time, hiring an individual versus a team may be the best option for you.
- The Difference Between a Freelancer and Independent Contractor
- Hire freelancers through Toptal and Fiverr
- How to Set Achievable Staff Growth Goals
Pete Newsome 00:13
You’re listening to The Hire Calling Podcast. I’m Pete Newsome. And this is your source for all things hiring, staffing, and recruiting. And of course, I’m with Ricky Baez. Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez 00:23
I am great. And I am excited, Pete. And I’m not going to ask you to ask me why? Because I’m just going to tell you because I know you were gonna ask me anyway.
Pete Newsome 00:31
I’ll bring it tell me.
Ricky Baez 00:32
I’m excited. A new Meat Market opened up just down the street. And this is the kind of thing that I get excited about in my mid-40s. Right? A new Meat Market opened up and you know, I want to go check out what kind of steaks they have.
Ricky Baez 00:44
I know, we talked about a really good steak. And every time I see a steak recipe, I’m like, I’m gonna send it to Pete. I’m like, asked to am I’m gonna, I’m not gonna send this to him. It’s kind of weird.
Pete Newsome 00:52
Why wouldn’t you be doing that?
Ricky Baez 00:56
No. So then. So as soon as we’re done here, I got lunch with my wife. And then after that, we’re gonna go check out the meat market and see what kind of ribeye we’re going to purchase for having a little cookout tonight. So I’m excited about that night. This is the kind of thing that I get excited about.
Pete Newsome 01:11
Good. we all need something to be excited about. So it’s football. You’re cooking steak, and you’re in good shape, right? This is your kind of weekend. Awesome.
Ricky Baez 01:21
Yes. Yes. Well, if you’re counting calories, you’re going to have issues right?
Pete Newsome 01:27
You’re not counting calories.
Ricky Baez 01:29
I mean, I count but I don’t do anything with it. Like, Wow, 4000. All right. That’s a new record.
Pete Newsome 01:37
It’s more of an observation.
Ricky Baez 01:40
It’s nothing. That information is other than being astonished.
Pete Newsome 01:43
That’s right. So man, today, we are continuing what we did, we did this last week, and it worked really well, and we got really positive feedback. So we’re trying it again, where we were just on the finding career zen podcast and which is aimed at anyone in the workforce, everyone in the workforce.
Pete Newsome 02:02
And we talked about the freelance economy. And now we’re coming over here to talk about it from the employer’s perspective on Hire Calling. So so how do you know where do you want to go with this today?
Ricky Baez 02:18
So all right, we talked a little bit about it last week, and then you know, it’s so I read the article and one thing I wanted to ask you, because I’m reading this and I’m like, okay, is freelancing worth it? The pros and cons. It was published on August 15, over on zengig.com.
Ricky Baez 02:35
And as I’m reading it, I’m like, okay, this makes perfect sense. What didn’t make sense to me, is the author and the author’s you. Because I’m like, Why? Why is the owner of a successful staffing company, talking about the pros and cons of freelancing? If anything, I will think you will write something to say about the nightmares or freelancers and why you should avoid freelancing at all costs.
Ricky Baez 03:03
Yeah, right. But you know, that’s not how you wrote, which, which I appreciate the authenticity. That’s, that’s, that’s what I thrive on. But I got to ask, from your perspective, why are you so pro freelance, when you’re in an environment where you need w two employees? Maybe? I’ll ask it that way.
Pete Newsome 03:22
I guess it’s so I won’t give us as long of an answer as I did already on this. Because, you know, it’s, it’s great to say that. Look, I want to be open and honest.
Pete Newsome 03:38
That’s the short answer I’ll just say on this, in my honest take is, in many instances, freelancing is an option that I would recommend to people, I would recommend it times to the workers, those in the labor force, as well as to companies who need to hire, I’m a consumer of freelance talent, where it makes sense.
Pete Newsome 04:03
So it is not the right thing, in my opinion, for every scenario, it’s not a good fit for every position. It’s not. But there are so many factors that go into it, in many cases, in many scenarios. I do believe it’s an option that should be considered. And at times, I think it’s probably the best option so so yeah, I’m a fan of it. And I just wanted to represent that feeling and the most genuine way.
Ricky Baez 04:33
But you need w two employees, don’t you? I mean, when you need w two employees. I mean, I mean, I’m just I’m generally asking, right, because I’m not doing it rhetorically because I’m thinking to run a successful business. You do need to direct the process.
Ricky Baez 04:49
You do need to direct employees’ work. Sure. As a freelancer, you can do that. If an end for the people just who don’t know the difference between A contractor and an employee, right? An employee, it’s somebody that from a business perspective, dictates that person’s work.
Ricky Baez 05:07
Whereas a contractor, you don’t dictate the work, you hire them for their expertise. And they handled it like a plumber if you hire a plumber to come to your house or not your employee, but your contract that you just tell them what to do, they do what you pay them. And that’s it.
Pete Newsome 05:21
That’s great, that’s a great way to phrase it. And you know, with the plumber, I don’t stand over their shoulder and tell them what to do and direct their work because they have expertise. I don’t have the knowledge I don’t have and that is generally a great time to consider a freelancer, am I able to direct this person’s work?
Pete Newsome 05:47
And do I have the knowledge and experience to guide them on how the job should be done? Or do I just need it to be done? And so I’ll give two examples. One is you, since you’re asking why I would do this, I’ll say well, you’re Exhibit A and S where you were a W2 employee for 4 Corner Resources. And that was fine. But now you’re not. And it’s still fine. Your function has changed.
Ricky Baez 06:16
I’m not an employee anymore, but I’m fine.
Pete Newsome 06:18
You’re fine. What did I say?
Ricky Baez 06:22
It just came across is now you weren’t there with the employee. And you were fine. It was fine. And now you’re not. I’m good, man.
Pete Newsome 06:31
So now right?
Ricky Baez 06:33
After this, it’s a great day.
Pete Newsome 06:35
Let me clarify that a little bit. So we are now consultants, working with us under your own tax ID with your own business.
Pete Newsome 06:47
And I would tell you, our relationship is just as good in many ways better because now I’m no longer the person, who requires your knowledge and skill set, I’m no longer having to pay for things that I don’t need from you, every dollar that goes hopefully, that this is how it is working.
Pete Newsome 07:09
And it’s how it works when things are going well. And this type of relationship where every dollar is $1 well spent. And you know, $1 $1 worked as $1 earned.
Pete Newsome 07:21
And so there’s no, there’s no ambiguity about that there’s no confusion about the nature of our relationship, you offer of value that my business needs and can take advantage of, therefore, we have a really good relationship and it’s at a rate that, that makes you happy and we’re willing to pay.
Pete Newsome 07:43
So that’s it. So that’s sort of, to me, what should be the kind of the key components of a healthy working relationship, right? Like what are you what you are the one performing the work of bringing the knowledge to the table, you put a value on that the market and the individual organization who needs that service? sets a value on it.
Pete Newsome 08:12
And if those two sides can agree, then you should work together. Yeah, there are some extra things right, you should like each other, should be able to trust each other, rely on each other. All of those things, but there are no extras that come with it. So it’s all the good without any potential drama or baggage that could otherwise exist.
Pete Newsome 08:33
And plus, you can’t I need you or rely on you because you are able to do things and know things that we’re not able to do without you. What we no longer have now that you is with you’re not being a W two employee like you used to be, is potentially sitting around when you’re not needed, right getting a paycheck when there’s no work to actually be done because you are operating at a strategic level for us.
Pete Newsome 09:04
And we don’t always need you. So we have we kind of know how much help we need from you on a month-to-month basis. And that’s how we’ve been working for quite a while now. And it’s a win-win, is it not?
Ricky Baez 09:17
It’s working beautifully in MPT. You know, I learned that it’s an A we talked about it on the show, but I’m not going to call it a skill but I learned that lesson a long time ago when I worked for that orange county government, and I can say this not because it was so long ago. You know, nobody works for the government to be rich.
Ricky Baez 09:36
They work for the government to be stable and have a pension which I call the P word because there’s hardly any organization that has a pension anymore. And the benefits even that’s been eroded. But here’s what I noticed. The reason I left on my own accord is that I found myself that I can come into the office. I can sit down, and not do anything all day long.
Ricky Baez 09:59
Read the Wall Street Journal and nobody would notice, nobody would notice. And I’m not built that way. I can’t just go in, right, and just stay there not do anything and get a paycheck from it. It’s just, I decided to say, No, I can’t, I have to leave. I’ve got to do something worthwhile. I’ve got to do something that I’m passionate about. Sitting on my butt reading the Wall Street Journal, is not it? Right? And this was a long time ago, right?
Ricky Baez 10:25
And then when I was working here, I noticed that I’m okay, look, I’m delivering what the organization needs, but it didn’t need as much of my time. Now, again, could I have made some stuff up? If I was a trifle in the Yeah, I could have right, and eventually, you’ll figure it out.
Ricky Baez 10:44
But that’s how I build relationships. Because you know, I’m really big on that.
Ricky Baez 10:48
That’s why you and I had, you know, actually, I approached him, I look, here’s what I want to do, you need this, right, it’s got to be a little bit less, I would love to enter into this, you know, for this relationship to be this freelance relationship, where I can give you exactly what the organization needs, we both agree on it, we’re both happy with it.
Ricky Baez 11:07
And then I can use my time for other people and do that same thing. That said, I didn’t want it to do that for a long time. And I’ve been prepping on that for a long time. It took me a long time for me to be comfortable and say, Look, if I don’t do it, now, I’m never gonna do it.
Pete Newsome 11:23
Well, it’s a hard step to take because you’re an individual, right? And as an employer, if you’re not used to that, this model, it’s hard to embrace as well, it seems odd, it’s uncertain, scary, whatever it might be.
Pete Newsome 11:35
But in your scenario, the reason why it’s such a good example is you were being compensated at a high level you were you, you wanted to perform at a high level, but a business our size with 35 employees, we don’t need a full time very senior HR professional, when we need one, we really need one.
Pete Newsome 11:57
So we do need someone with a high level of expertise and knowledge to guide us. But we don’t need it for 40 plus hours a week.
Pete Newsome 12:06
And similarly, you didn’t. So what we would have to do what we used to do, when you were a W two employee, for corner resources, we would fill in that time with, you know, lower level work, but work that someone a at your experience and compensation level.
Pete Newsome 12:25
We didn’t need to pay for someone at that level to do the work that filled in in the blank, so to speak, or the gaps of time, which was significant, which was more than 50% of the time. Nor did you want to spend your day doing that stuff.
Ricky Baez 12:40
Right? It was withheld.
Pete Newsome 12:42
I know I’m getting paid to do this stuff that is at a lower level. But that’s not how I want to spend my day. So you were honest about that. When you first brought it up that hey, maybe you need less of me, right effectively, but we still need you so that was such a perfect example.
Pete Newsome 13:03
The second one I want to give is an SEO consultant who we’ve worked with and who I’ve interviewed on the finding career zen podcast. Rebecca Gill, Rebecca is a guru what she does she is an SEO expert. Well as such she commands a high price right she should I think we’re getting we’re getting anything we pay Rebecca is dollars very well spent.
Pete Newsome 13:34
But so she deserves that she’s earned that she warns that however you want to phrase it, we but business our size doesn’t necessarily need that full time either. Right. And she is at a point in her career where she doesn’t want to have to continue to do that daily grind of working around the clock for an organization, she wants to have more freedom.
Pete Newsome 14:00
She wants to be more selective about who she works with and what project she takes on. When we started working together. A couple of years ago now, we didn’t know how it was gonna go. And that’s something I talk about a lot with clients especially when they drag out an interview process.
Pete Newsome 14:21
And one another interview and another interview, as I always say, and I’ve said for more than 15 years now, you don’t really know what someone’s like until you live with them. And you can interview until the cows come home. But until that person is in the seat, and until they know what it’s like to live with you as the employer.
Pete Newsome 14:42
There it’s still very much a crapshoot. So when it was just like a traditional employee-employer relationship, when we started working together, we didn’t know how long it was going to last. And every day there’s a decision to make does she still like working for us? Do we still like working with her?
Pete Newsome 14:59
If yes, we continue, if there ever comes a day where it’s no and she’s, she’s funny about this, and she says, I’m here until you don’t need me anymore, right? Like I will, I will pass on my knowledge to you because again, she has knowledge and expertise we don’t have, I couldn’t direct and manage her if I wanted to.
Pete Newsome 15:20
And I’ll make sure she listens to this because she’ll laugh and agree that she’s unmanageable. But it’s such a cool relationship, because even though we’re just like with you, if I call you for help, if or if any one of our leadership team calls you for help they need it, they need your answer, we don’t have the answer, we need you.
Pete Newsome 15:41
We can’t tell you what that answer should be. That’s why we call you similarly to Rebecca, when we need her advice on something, we were going to take it because that’s the knowledge we don’t otherwise have.
Pete Newsome 15:56
But every day if something changes, and let’s say if we run out of money, here, we change direction, or any, any anything like that, or she decides she doesn’t like us anymore, or the project gets boring, and she wants to go on to greener pastures. That’s one phone call.
Pete Newsome 16:15
And just like contract staffing, there’s no drama, there are no write-ups, there are no performance plans, there’s none of the things that make you as an HR professional, you know, it just like I wrote in the blog article, be so needed at such a big scale within an organization.
Pete Newsome 16:36
Because HR departments aren’t large, because things go so well between the employee and the employee. I made it I love how you put that. Well. I mean, it’s true. You’re right. Why do we have so many laws around employment and hiring and why do you see so many lawyers advertising on TV wanting, you know, an employee to sue their employer?
Pete Newsome 17:02
And then, you know, of course, all the government mandated things when it comes to helping care and time off and sick pay and this and that things that have been making the employee have made the employee-employer relationships, so much more than just about work? Right? It’s gone. It’s, it goes way too far, in my opinion. So let’s cut to the healthy stuff and leave it at that.
Ricky Baez 17:30
That so you made an interesting point there that you’re right. It is it’s how she said it, that I’m here until you don’t need me anymore. Whereas from AWT’s perspective, it’s almost it’s the same thing. But it’s harder to get to the don’t need any more part. Right?
Ricky Baez 17:49
Because if you get there right, then either you have to let the person go. Obviously, if you don’t need them anymore, and the person is performing, then that it’s not termination is more of a layoff than anything else. And there are some legal hoops that we would have to jump through for that.
Pete Newsome 18:04
But just think about that statement. There are legal hoops, we have to jump through to separate employment. What in the world?
Ricky Baez 18:15
How do we get into a world where the state of Florida is an employee at Wilston, which is an act that says any party can terminate this relationship at any time? That’s not protected by law. But that last part is really that that that kind of gets people but I hear you, I hear you because if you have that freelance relationship, right, all you have to do is say, Look, I don’t need you anymore.
Ricky Baez 18:40
I don’t need this Windex until next week, I’m gonna put it away in the cabinet. Now forget about it. I think that’s a bad example. But I think you get what I’m getting at that it’s versus the W two relationship that you have to either continue to fill that time because I’m taking the the the employee hat off, I’m putting the employer hat on, okay.
Ricky Baez 19:00
From an employer, employers perspective, like anything else in life. If you pay a specific price for a specific service, you expect to get the most out of that service. So in when there’s a point in time, when there isn’t much for this person to do, yeah, I agree that we got to find something for that person to do so those dollars can stretch out versus from a freelance perspective.
Ricky Baez 19:23
You know what, I’ll talk to you in a couple of months when I need something else and there are no dollars exchanging back and forth. And it’s easy to do. You’re right. It’s one phone call that said we’re done.
Ricky Baez 19:33
Because let me tell you being an HR for 20 years, it really is difficult to start having the same relationship you have with a freelancer as you do what a W two employee very difficult, right?
Ricky Baez 19:43
But look at all the baggage that goes away with and you asked me why I would be a proponent of this as an owner of a contract staffing business. Well, many of these things also apply to contracts for staff. Here’s how I would, one of the ways I would differentiate it right?
Ricky Baez 20:04
Because it’s not, it’s not for every scenario far from it, I, you know, I’m not suggesting you turn your whole business model into hiring freelancers. Far from it. So again, it’s where you need expertise your organization otherwise doesn’t possess, that you don’t, you’re not in a position to manage and direct that individual.
Ricky Baez 20:26
You know, and then also where it one of the things is, I think, generally speaking, where you need one thing done at a time, by one individual versus a team, where management and direction and structures necessary, because if that doesn’t work, right, you want to hire five independent freelancers to all work on a software project together. Right? That’s a bad idea.
Ricky Baez 20:50
If you need one software developer for one project, okay, then maybe then now, another big factor is, do you have the ability, to assess talent? Do you have the ability to make sure that you’re hiring someone who’s fully qualified, so it’s not as simple as waving a magic wand?
Ricky Baez 21:15
And so in most cases, the vast majority of cases I would still recommend, if you are looking to a third party to help with your hiring, you should use a staffing company, you should use an organization like 4 Corner, but when you know exactly who and what you need, and you are willing to take the time to define that person on your own.
Ricky Baez 21:35
Because luck recruiting and staffing is a very, very time-intensive thing. Then it can be a really attractive, really attractive option.
Ricky Baez 21:47
You know what, Pete? I’m gonna do something that I hardly ever do. So get ready, and put your seatbelt on. Actually, it’s not that bad.
Pete Newsome 21:53
You’re going to eat vegetarian all week?
Ricky Baez 21:58
April Fools. Oh, man, that’s not happening. It’s hilarious. No, I, um, there’s so much Tech Talk. I had to start about that later. No, because I was approaching this show.
Ricky Baez 22:13
From the perspective of if I am a client, if I’m a business, why I need to, if I’m a business, I need to be careful in how I run my business, because I don’t want with some so much ease out there to be a freelancer with Uber Eats and, and the gig economy being as big as it ever was, before.
Ricky Baez 22:36
I was approaching this from the beginning of the show, from the perspective of a business owner perspective, how am I going to compete with that? If I need to keep people employed? How am I going to compete with it?
Ricky Baez 22:49
I’m changing my tune. You don’t compete with it? It’s almost better if you just make the switch and work more with freelance because it’s just easier. It gives more flexibility. It’s you said it early depends on the business right? But astounding to me that it’s just a lot easier overall.
Ricky Baez 23:09
To just have freelancers come in do the job and leave. Obviously, that’s not all businesses, that’s not even the entire makeup of a business because there are some things that you need to people their full time.
Pete Newsome 23:20
Yeah, only a portion of the jobs that if you look at a business as a whole, I would say it would be the not the majority of all functions and a business. Right. So I want to want to make that point. Clearly.
Ricky Baez 23:34
I see that because you know, when when I started to freelance full time myself, it’s it’s the floodgates open, which I was very lucky, really, really lucky. The floodgates opened I’m like, oh my god, I gotta hire people.
Ricky Baez 23:48
And then I realized that I was set up it’s for tax purposes, I may have to set up a different LLC or different incorporation. If I have to hire somebody w two. But now what I started to do is farm work out to other freelancers, right, here you go, I don’t worry about their taxes, right? I just want you to conduct this investigation because I don’t have time for it.
Ricky Baez 24:08
And I have full I’m not going to bring somebody on board, from a freelance perspective, if I’m not 100% on point, are confident that they got the skill set to do so. So these are people I trust, but they’re not employees. I’ve been doing it for four months, and it just hit me right now. That’s probably the way to go for me. It can be it probably is okay. All right. Yeah.
Pete Newsome 24:28
Once again, are you turning a task over to them to come back to you when once completed? Or are you directing them in that effort? And I think that should serve as your guide as much as anything else. Do you? Yeah. So that’s, that’s a big one. And so when When?
Pete Newsome 24:49
When I think of why freelance and I’d also separate you mentioned Uber, I’d separate that into a different category, right? Because yeah, because as we talked about you A little bit earlier on the other show was, if you’re going to work for Uber, you’re an independent contractor working for Uber, but you’re not going from Uber to, you’re working exclusively for Uber.
Pete Newsome 25:18
I mean, you could say you’re a freelance driver, maybe you work for Lyft. One day and Uber the next. I’m sure people do that. I guess you’re a freelance driver, but you have a finite number of organizations, you can go work for, right, who are hiring delivery services, or drivers or are just short TaskRabbit. That’s, that’s Oh, yes. Just figuring out what that was last week.
Ricky Baez 25:39
Yeah. But I guess Yeah, but that’s no, that’s a freelance, right? I think TaskRabbit once you realize as you told me that it’s not trained rabbits napping, and to help to be in the office, I was just joking.
Pete Newsome 25:54
But I love that your example was a rabbit bringing you a carrot. They’re not going to eat the carrot. They may bring you anything. Anything but a carrot. That’s the one thing. Do rabbits even eat carrots? Or is it just bugs? But no, I know they do. But up that questioning.
Pete Newsome 26:11
But no, if you are if you know if you’re I think TaskRabbit is an organization. And like if you need like work done around the house if you need handyman service, that sort of thing. You hire through TaskRabbit.
Pete Newsome 26:23
And if you have, I mean, so many trade skills are in demand, high end in demand, I’m sure you’re part of some of these groups on either Facebook that has like neighborhood groups or I’m trying to think of it there’s an app that I get that it’s a neighborhood app, and people are constantly looking for quality help in every area, you can take off because good helpers really hard to find.
Pete Newsome 26:52
And it’s, yeah, we’re in the process of building it. So not all of our, our job description pages have that yet. But we’re actually rec going to recommend how to hire for each role, for some roles, we will recommend considering freelance knowing that that means they won’t go through us that means any revenue for 4 Corner Resources.
Pete Newsome 26:52
But part of my thought process is Ricky, I want if I’m going to say and as I often will, I think we’re your best option. I want it to be meaningful. And the only way that’s ever going to happen is if I’m also willing to at times say we’re not your best option. Yeah. So you know if if you know, yeah, the answer can’t be the same every time right? It just doesn’t make sense.
Pete Newsome 26:52
So if you are an individual who is confident that you offer a skill or trade or value that’s in the world that it’s going to be in demand at a rate that others will pay. Probably worth considering doing. If you’re looking to hire, I break it down, I can I could go job title by job title. And in fact, we’re doing this on the fourth quarter website. Right now we’re putting a little guide on how to hire by each job title.
Ricky Baez 28:15
So this reminds me. This is a legit story. Have you heard of Chance The Rapper? I have, right? Do you know his story? And how he became like the rapper that he is today? By chance? Perhaps?
Ricky Baez 28:32
Where are my real chancers? I could do the worst.
Pete Newsome 28:35
I’m slow. I won’t get I won’t be able to get through it in time. No. Does that not?
Ricky Baez 28:40
So Chance The Rapper so where a lot of up-and-coming artists who have yet to be discovered their main goal is to sell their stuff, sell their stuff, sell, sell, sell. They just nickel and diming people’s Chance The Rapper that differently. What he did is he gave stuff away. He gave it for free. His music, give it away on SoundCloud. He just gave everything away for free.
Ricky Baez 29:05
Because what he was banking on was not nickel and diming people he was banking on the quality of the music. And then later on somebody would notice him. And that’s exactly what happened. Somebody noticed him and now he had all these different record labels trying to sign him and he had he was in control. He was in control. He gets to pick which one he would do.
Ricky Baez 29:26
But it wasn’t his marketing strategy per se of nickel and diming people. It was a different marketing strategy to say this, I want the quality of my work to speak for itself. So what you just said right now about putting that stuff out there that may not get the organization any revenue, not immediately. But later on. People are going to remember what the founders Yeah.
Pete Newsome 29:52
You’ve heard that expression if you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If yes, right. So well. I don’t want to be that as a staffing company, I don’t want to pretend, you know for lack of a better way to put it, that everything’s a good fit for us. And I started having this thought because I got the first person to question why I would recommend alternative solutions on our own website.
Pete Newsome 30:19
But I had this realization, sometime within the last year that when when you take one of our, job description pages, we get a lot of web traffic.
Pete Newsome 30:30
Take WordPress developer, for example, most of the organization, most of the people who come to that page, whether it’s candidates looking for the job description information, or we have salary data, we have other things on these pages, or someone who’s looking to hire and going to build a job description based on our information and help that they can find on that webpage.
Pete Newsome 30:51
The vast majority of them aren’t going to hire from us that I know. And I know that because these pages in some cases get 1000s of views a month.
Pete Newsome 31:02
And we don’t have 1000s of companies a month hiring WordPress developers from us. So if they’re going to come, I may as well give them the information that I think they need. And lots of they’ll keep coming back because there’s going to be a point hopefully, where they do want to hire from us, they do need to hire from us.
Pete Newsome 31:22
So if everyone who came to our website each month, that’s we got over 100,000 visits, suddenly wanted to hire from us for whatever position they were looking for. We’d have a capacity problem that will grow to it.
Ricky Baez 31:37
Well, it’s a really good problem to have.
Pete Newsome 31:41
It would be a problem with no solution immediately, right? But I would rather give them the information. So again, when they need to hire us for a role that is fully within our wheelhouse and an area of expertise. And we’re confident we can deliver we don’t take on positions unless we only take on positions we fully intend to fill.
Pete Newsome 32:05
And so that’s also why we’re not a great fit for everyone, you have to know who you are. So as a staffing organization, we don’t reject being one of 20 vendors, for example, in a scenario, that’s not what we’re here to do. We’re here to work with you. In where we’re actually a partner and not just a vendor. Now everyone says that, well, trust me, put us to the test, we’ll turn you down. If you want us to just be another vendor.
Pete Newsome 32:37
And the reason is that we can’t be effective that way. Right? We can be effective on behalf of our candidates and really for our clients and no once no one wants a staffing company even thank you do and if you’re listening and you’re someone who thinks the more vendors are better.
Pete Newsome 32:53
And I’m going to squeeze them on price, you were telling me right before we started recording that you encountered an opportunity recently through one of your clients, where they’re a staffing recruiting firm is recruiting at it for an 8% placement fee.
Ricky Baez 33:09
Oh yeah. So I was talking to a client, actually, in the needed recruiting services, oh, my goodness. I know somebody who can take care of this for you. And they’re like, look, this other company told me that they could do it for 8%.
Ricky Baez 33:24
We need it for five and I’m like, I’m not gonna I’m sorry, I’m not gonna waste your time. I’m not gonna waste your time or anybody else’s time. Because it’s the recruiting fee is much higher than that. Right? Yeah. So yeah, it’s I remember that vividly.
Pete Newsome 33:36
If you’re looking to hire a firm to do recruiting on your behalf, and they’re, they’re offering you fees in that range, you should run away. And for us, what I because I occasionally will be presented with that, hey, if you’ll do it for x, you know, fee, which is significantly lower than what the market is, will say, you don’t want that because you want our best effort.
Pete Newsome 33:58
Right? I mean, and that’s the same thing with when it comes to the advice we try to give on the website, you know, you want the best answer. And so you’re going to keep coming back. And most of the time, it’s not gonna be freelance truth be told, in many cases, it will be it is a growing market.
Pete Newsome 34:16
It is I think the future of the workforce in America. For all the reasons we’ve talked about it strips away all of the bad components of the employee-employer relationship and just leaves the good and who wouldn’t want that?
Ricky Baez 34:33
Yeah, you’re changing my tune on that man. You are not because it’s again, from somebody who is a freelancer, I get what you’re saying but somebody who at some point, I am going to need a huge team just met right now.
Ricky Baez 34:48
I understand the pros and cons of that, right, especially with the team you know, and jumping through all those loopholes when you don’t need that team anymore. Something you said that kind of piqued my end. interest as far as, actually that I appreciate about how you handle situations with companies that over promise, because in my previous life when I will use other staffing agencies before I knew about four corner resources, I would be skeptical when they say, Oh yeah, we can handle six 600 people a month.
Ricky Baez 35:21
And I’m like, really? Okay, let’s see what you got in. Next thing, you know, you put the ink to paper, and I only got maybe 2% of that, and oh, my God, I should have listened to my gut. So I appreciate you saying that look like if that’s too much when I’m going to be budgeted for the capacity issue, we can grow to it. We’re not going to do it.
Ricky Baez 35:39
But I do appreciate that from a business owner’s perspective. Because me somebody who relies a lot on trust, and, and relationships, if I see that you’ve got my best interests at heart, not just to line your pockets. But so you have my best interest in heart, then the trust factor, is there, your who are going to work with from now on? Sure.
Ricky Baez 36:01
So from a freelancer perspective, I will tell you this story earlier where the one client kind of overpaid me. And I’m like, What is this and I gave it back. And he was shocked that I gave it back. And because I could have easily found somewhere else to throw that money in there. But I went ahead and give it back which builds relationships.
Ricky Baez 36:19
So I appreciate how you handle that. And you have open and honest conversations.
Ricky Baez 36:24
And I heard you say it a couple of months ago at a monthly staff meeting when you said something to the effect that we’re not going to be able to work with everybody, right? It’s not all about the dollars and cents. We want to be able to help organizations fill that void. And if we’re not able to do that, that’s okay. Yeah, perfectly okay.
Pete Newsome 36:44
Well make no mistake, we’re not a charity organization. That’s an organization. Absolutely. And we don’t apologize for that ever. But the point is we want to enter into relationships that become partnerships. And so it’s got to be a good fit on both sides.
Pete Newsome 37:02
So I’d rather have fewer clients that or that or they’re stronger relationships, then then then then many I mean, I think everyone wants that, right? I don’t think that’s I don’t think these things are unique.
Pete Newsome 37:15
But I think what’s different for us is we’re at a size where we can not get blinded by that if the organization’s if an organization is too big, I think it’s very difficult for that to permeate through the whole organization, and you start to manage by metrics and, and numbers. I mean, that’s the downside of a really large organization.
Pete Newsome 37:36
You can’t be personal and your approach, you can say you are but you can’t be where we can do things like change a contract and in five minutes, right are you know, trust me, the when I worked for a company with 16,000 employees prior to starting 4 Corner, I could not change a contract in five minutes. In fact, I had to enter a queue.
Pete Newsome 37:58
And it’s crazy to say like now because I’ve been away from that for so long. I had to go to a web internal webpage, fill out a form and I would be queued up to wait for an available attorney to review my question. I mean, what a shock that that company is not thriving.
Ricky Baez 38:16
Well, let me tell you that it’s I learned that with you last year, right, because meat comes from corporate America, where it took six months to make a change on something. I think you and I were talking about something on a Tuesday, and I’m erasure that we’ll get that taken care of.
Ricky Baez 38:31
On Thursday, it already happened then I’m like, whoa, whoa. The attorney never reviewed it. We never got a hold on compensation. And he and you’re like, No, Ricky, we got this. It’s and I’m like, my neck broke Pete. I remember. Yeah. Cuz I’m like, Whoa, that’s news to me. Right.
Ricky Baez 38:48
So I get that. Because with a freelance relationship, you’re able to do that so long as both parties agree. Because even as a W2 employee agreement, even if both parties agree, you still have some kind of legal hoops to jump through to make sure that it’s done properly.
Pete Newsome 39:05
I think you just said it in the most simplistic and effective, accurate way. As long as both parties agree. No outside, no government influence, no mandates, no laws, no policies. I mean, sure. I’m sure there are that you know, forever. For anyone who knows more about intimacy or the legal aspects of freelancing.
Pete Newsome 39:27
Don’t quote me on this. I’m a consumer of it. Freelance employees almost call them employees of freelance work. I always make that mistake, because we’re not employees and that’s it. They’re not employees. So even though I’m the client, and I’m the one paying it’s more of a peer relationship, which is how it should be.
Pete Newsome 39:49
Right, where my SEO consultant who I mentioned earlier, will tell me no, she will overrule me, even though again, I’m the one writing the check. But that’s the nature of the relationship. She’s there because she knows best. I won’t overrule you on an HR issue. I mean, I could, you’d probably, you probably you’d probably stop working with me if it put here but think about it.
Pete Newsome 40:16
If so then it wouldn’t be a healthy relationship at that point. So why would I? Why would I want you in that role if I thought overruling you was a viable option? Right? And, you know, look, I mean, there are things where you will say, you could do it, either way, I recommend this. Okay.
Pete Newsome 40:37
And then there are other times will, you’ll say, No, the safe route, the only logical course is to go this way. And then I’m not going to dispute that that’s what you’re there for. Right? So that’s, those are some of the reasons why it can be it can be a really, really healthy thing.
Pete Newsome 40:54
And if you haven’t explored it, if if you’re new to him, this concept is completely foreign to you start learning about it, because it’s got to catch up. And you don’t want to be the last one on this train that I know.
Ricky Baez 41:05
Well, I gotta tell you, I am looking at it differently. Because it’s an again, I’m being serious before we started on this on this call. Before we started on this podcast, I’m thinking about the employer and how they’re going to combat it. And now I’m thinking how they can embrace it, just embrace it just on their own.
Ricky Baez 41:24
And again, if you’re their business owner, you’re their business leader, take a look at your internal structure, whether you want the organization to be in five years, and maybe that’s going to help you maybe the gig economy, the freelance work would help you between now and then. And then, later on, you build that team.
Ricky Baez 41:41
But there’s a lot of great uses for it because this is my first time seeing it from a consumer perspective, versus me being the actual freelancer, which, you know, according, to the article, you put some pros and cons on there.
Ricky Baez 41:55
From the Freelancer perspective, how much hard work goes into the different hats that you have to wear as an entrepreneur? But let me tell you, as a freelancer, it’s the best thing ever. For me, that really is not for everyone.
Pete Newsome 42:09
It’s definitely not. And then for you, as the business owner is the best thing for you as well. Because whenever you need something from me, hey, Ricky, it’s too you have some time and want.
Pete Newsome 42:19
And one of the things of the rules that I have with my clients is always to respond to your clients as soon as possible, you never let them get the day going without responding to your client.
Pete Newsome 42:30
And that’s why we got such a great relationship, if that’s what this is working between you and me, is because we both agree, is working well. And hopefully, if anybody else decides to go that route, it’ll work well for them. So I really liked this article, you definitely changed my tune on it.
Pete Newsome 42:46
I appreciate it. Good. Good to hear. All right, problem solved. So get on getting on board and do it selectively. That’s the last thing I want to say this is not making a case to wholesale.
Pete Newsome 42:59
You’re trying to swap out any internal team. I think I said it earlier. But in case I didn’t know what to make that point. Yeah, for the foreseeable future, I still believe it will be a relatively small percentage of the employee base in any organization, right?
Pete Newsome 43:18
And we don’t have time to go title by title. But if you go on the 4 Corner site, give us a month or so to get all these pages updated. If you look at our job descriptions, we’re going to do exactly that. Well, we’ll recommend job title by job title, because that’s a real way to look at it and then see if it makes sense for you and for your organization.
Pete Newsome 43:39
Awesome. So that’s it. I think I think we have it covered. Well, Ricky, thanks so much. As always, everyone who’s listening drive safely, you know, please rate and review us, email us because we are going to do a q&a very soon.
Pete Newsome 43:53
We are going to do it on this show. And sometimes yes and sometime in September, for sure. So please email us firstname.lastname@example.org and have a great weekend. Thanks so much.
Ricky Baez 44:06
Have a good one folks. Good
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