Hire Calling Podcast Episode 6: How to Successfully Work with a Recruiter
Episode 6 Transcript
You’re listening to the Hire Calling podcast, your source for all things hiring, staffing and recruiting. In today’s episode, we give advice to job seekers who have never worked with a recruiter before or haven’t done so in a long time. So if you’re on the market and you could use help with your job search, this episode is definitely for you. Let’s go. Welcome everyone. And thank you for listening to episode six of the Hire Calling podcast. My name is Pete Newsome, and today I’m joined by Carter Alexander, who is coming back for the second time. And thanks again for joining today. Carter.
Carter Alexander 00:45
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Pete Newsome 00:48
We’re going to talk about working with recruiters how to how to do it to get the best possible outcome, and our target audience for today is the group who a very large group whose found themselves unexpectedly on the job market, and many of you, I’m sure have not worked with recruiter in the past. And if you have, it’s been a long time. So our objective today is really arm you with the best information that will lead to a good outcome and hopefully to secure the your next great job. So we wanted to begin by really describing you know who a third party recruiter is and what role we play in the market. And that’s important to understand. We exist we live in between the companies who are hiring and the candidates who are seeking a job. And our process is varied depending on the organization, you know, we as a recruiting industry, and we’ll talk more about the different types of recruiters later. But a third party recruiter exists to fill the roles that their client companies have and that means we work with lots of different companies all shapes and sizes, and work with candidates all day, every day, trying to find the best match. If you want to really sum up, you know, the role we play in the market, it’s really matchmakers for job seekers and employers that that’s really the role. So, it today, you know, we also want to really get into details of you know, who would work with the recruiter why you would want to so Carter, why don’t you take that? What candidates should should consider working with a recruiter?
Carter Alexander 02:23
Yeah, so I mean, a candidate should work with a recruiter or use a recruiter when they’re either searching for a new job or maybe passively looking for a new position. Having a relationship with one or multiple recruiters is obviously beneficial, because you always have someone keeping you in mind when new positions come across the table. Now, what about clients? Will you know while we’re here, what’s the scenario where clients would would call on a recruiter and need to work with a third party like for corn resources? Yeah, so usually, a client would call on us and this could be absolutely varying, you know, reasons, but, you know, maybe it’s a very hard position that reasons – a niche skill, you know, they’re looking for someone, maybe it’s a smaller company, they don’t have an IT department and, and they’re looking for somebody with a skill set that they don’t necessarily know how to speak on. They could also have a volume issue; not enough recruiters in house or maybe not even a recruiting team at all, and they need to hire people for several different positions. So there’s all kinds of different reasons why, why clients might use us, for us to go out and find the right candidates for them.
Pete Newsome 03:28
There really are limitless reasons. And two, we could do our own episode just on that and maybe we will one day soon. But it’s also worth noting that there are in house or corporate recruiters that exist and they are dedicated to their their company they work for of course, unlike a third party, who in most cases works with a very wide variety of clients. Sometimes we will specialize in a certain industry, or vertical or a position type but most recruiting firms tend to work with a pretty broad array of clients. So, you know, one of the points that we want to make today as well is that you should not just limit yourself to working with one recruiter for that very reason. And that kind of leads into the next thing we could talk about is, why you’d want to work with recruiters because you want to give yourself the best and widest exposure possible when you’re on the job market. And I like to say you should cast a wide net. So pigeonholing yourself with just trying to get a job but one company or work with just one recruiting firm is just limiting and that’s it just something you should absolutely not do in your job search. So, Carter, where would you find a recruiter? let’s let’s let’s get into that a little bit.
Carter Alexander 04:49
Yeah, absolutely. So there’s a several different ways and I would say the most important and first thing you should do is to post everywhere you can post your resume out there. But as a part of that, be willing to actually work to find that job, work to talk to the recruiters make sure that you know you’re accessible that you do set it set up, set aside time for that. You’re going to be getting lots of calls, especially in a job market. If you know people are hiring and it’s very active, so you’re going to be getting college, you’re going to have recruiters calling you to, you know, get an understanding of of what you do and what you’ve done and what you’re looking for. And then the next step, I would say is go to the American staffing Association, they have a list of very credible staffing resources that you can go to go to Google, make sure you know, list and find out who has the best reviews in your area. That’s a very good way. I mean, who doesn’t like making sure or making sure reviews are good before before trying what you’re going after? And then obviously ask friends, family, colleagues, anybody that you’ve had good experiences with, you know, you’re bound to know someone that’s worked with a staffing agency somewhere along the way and then and lastly, like Pete said, be willing and ready to work with multiple recruiters. There’s no point in, in just, you know, limiting yourself to to one agency or another people do have different clients. So it’s important, like you said, to cast a wide net.
Pete Newsome 06:15
So you make a great point, it’s very important if finding a job is your job. And this isn’t really what we’re going to talk about today. But we could probably never mentioned this enough. If you are on the job market, you should treat it get up in the morning, start looking and then go, when you’re done. It should be the sun should be down. So it is it is a big effort when done right. And you should really treat it as if that is your job when you get up every day. So I’m really glad you made that point and put that in there. And of course, when all else fails, go to Google. There’s a couple other points we could we should probably touch on with this. I think we take for granted because we’re so familiar with all of these sites, but when you mentioned posting your resume, can you list a few? where should someone go?
Carter Alexander 07:02
Absolutely. I would say indeed.com is probably the leader right now, as far as any type of job boards go, and then we’d go to careerbuilder, monster, LinkedIn, make sure you have your resume accessible on your profile, especially if you are actively searching. How easy is it for us to go on there, click your resume and give you a call right away, right? So those would probably be the most important ones off the top of my head. So if you post your resume there, you will be found my recruiters, they live on job boards. That’s where they find they that’s where we companies like for corner resources, find our candidates to build your network. They’re also LinkedIn, you have to be on LinkedIn. That’s probably still the biggest site. Currently that recruiters use and corporate and recruiter third party recruiters alike will spend a lot of time on LinkedIn throughout the day looking for candidates. Good stuff. Okay, so Well, let me let me just make one more point.
Pete Newsome 08:00
Before we move on, use your existing network. There’s nothing better than referrals. So would you ask your friends, your family, your neighbors, anyone and everyone colleagues, former work colleagues, find out who they successfully worked with in the past. We love referrals. every third party service company like ours loves referrals. So make sure you take advantage of that too. Absolutely. And then you’re going to connect with the recruiter, you’re going to have that initial interaction with them. I’ll turn this one over to you, Carter, you’ve had many, many of these conversate too many to calculate over the last couple of years, initial conversations with candidates, many of those of whom have never worked with the recruiter before, right. So please talk about some tips and advice you’d give for that initial conversation.
Carter Alexander 08:48
Well, yeah, initial conversation, we’re going to go over the basics, right? We’re going to go over you know, the geography first and foremost, where do you live where you’re from what commute you know, are you looking to drive, are you looking for a remote? Are you looking for an on site role, and then we’ll break it down into, you know, the positions that you’re really after, based on the experience that you have. So, you know, if you are used to working in the restaurant industry, that’s the industry that you love, that’s the industry that you know, you know, we’re going to target companies that are within that realm. Same thing with the entertainment industry, anything like that, we’re going to target those type of companies, because that’s probably where you’d be best off. And that’s where you’d have the most success. Next, we’ll get into skill sets, that’s where it can get a little bit technical. It’s it’s good to try to target recruiters maybe that are in the same industry or have the same knowledge as far as that goes. So maybe if you are calling on recruiting companies, hey, you know, this is a niche skill set, but hey, maybe I’m an AWS, you know, cloud engineer or something like that, you know, call in and say, Hey, this is what I do. Do you have anybody that specializes in this? Do you have anybody that is it has an understanding of that and then you know, go after those those people and then have those conversations as far as skill set goes.
Pete Newsome 10:00
I’ll jump in for a minute on that, because it really is a distinction worth making. Not all recruiters are created equally. And there are limitless specialties and niches there recruiting firms that are just very general in nature. So one of the first things you should do early on in those conversations is to qualify them. They’re going to qualify you, they’re going to they’re going to dig deeply into your background, your capabilities, and we’ll talk about that a little a little bit more. But it makes sense to start by determining whether they’re a good fit for you as well. And there are a number of questions you can ask the recruiters to quickly determine that talk about the geography say work and talk about the type of clients that they work with the type of industries the type of positions they place, and feel free to ask for very specific details about that. Ask who who they work with see if they will name names I can tell you that if someone calls in to four corner and they’re working with one of our recruiters for the first time, we’ll be happy to give a list of the type of clients we work with. And anyone who’s respectable will probably not hesitate to do that, either. Right?
Carter Alexander 11:16
Absolutely. And, you know, again, with with the types of clients asking for examples is crucial, you know, you don’t want to obviously, you know, go after that firm that has, you know, only one or two clients in the area. Well, I mean, it’s good to cast a wide net still, it’s it’s good to go after, you know, the recruiting agencies that do have access to multiple hundreds, you know, thousands of clients within the area or elsewhere.
Pete Newsome 11:42
Totally agree there. Once that’s established, then the conversation is going to turn towards your background as a candidate and the good recruiter will try to get as thorough as possible into not only what you can do from a skillset standpoint, but the type of job you’re looking for, because it the the match has to be both ways. It’s not just about whether you could do the job, it’s about whether you as a candidate want the job. Carter, talk about some of the things that we asked for in terms of qualifying candidate in terms of what’s not on the resume.
Carter Alexander 12:23
Right. Yeah, we’re going to obviously, you know, ask you about your past experiences on your resume, you know, we know where you work, I like to go back three, three positions backwards, depending on how long you’ve been there, right. So, hey, where do you know, where did you work here? What was your position? Did you get any promotions here? What was your pay rate in this in this position, you know, and kind of work our way up to your most recent role, how you got there, really, because it helps us paint the bigger picture, right? Let’s look at your progress and your career progression up until this point, and you know, what’s your next step? Is it a lateral move into a position or a bigger company? Is it a technical promotion into a new role that is like a manager type role, if that’s something that hasn’t been in before. So we’ll be asking questions to help us build the bigger picture, really, and don’t assume anything and that make sure you share as much information as you can. With the recruiter.
Pete Newsome 13:21
By default, people will assume that compensation is the top driver or one of the top drivers for a job change, or being willing to accept a new job but in many cases, it’s not there things that go way beyond pay. The type of company size of company environment commute, lot of jobs are going to be virtual now that’s that’s going to be a big change. As a candidate, it’s imperative that you share as much of that as you can with the recruiter And make no mistake if you’re talking to a recruiter who appears disinterested in any of that and you can tell through the conversation with, they’re taking notes, whether they’re asking intuitive and insightful questions. If that’s not happening, you should probably move on pretty quickly, because that’s a pretty good sign that that recruiter does not have your best interests in mind. So look for that look for those signs when they’re there. But I’ll tell you that’s, that is not the majority of recruiters, majority of recruiters really do want to take a deep dive, which gives them the best chance for success because that’s the only way we get paid. And I’ll just mention that very quickly. Because, you know, we have to keep reminding ourselves that a lot of folks who’ve never worked with recruiters may not realize this. We don’t ask for anything in terms of compensation from the candidates who we work with. We’re paid by the clients and in most cases, we’re not paid unless there’s a successful hire, and that the person who’s hired stays at the organization so we really are invested in not the front end. No the ability to get an interview scheduled, or even to get someone to the offer stage, we want that candidate to last. That’s how we build our reputation as a third party recruiting firm. And that’s how we make our money. So our interests really are your interests. So you have to be open. And I know Carter mentioned that earlier, but we could probably mention it 10 more times, and it wouldn’t be enough, be transparent. And you just lay all your cards on the table, so to speak, it will serve you very, very well. So one of the things we have to talk about then is compensation. Not always easiest conversation. But Carter, talk a little bit about that is
Carter Alexander 15:42
Yeah, compensation is definitely something that can be very touchy for some people and maybe not touchy at all for others. You know, it just kind of depends on the situation. I’ve had candidates call in and the first thing they say what is this position pay? But like you said, it is important to to be transparent all the way around. And the reason for that is, is we are not making any money, we are not, you know, fulfilling with our clients needs or anything like that until we find you a position that you laughed at. And that’s that is what one that is what is obviously very important for us, we have your best interests at mind. So you know, if you were just to give an example, if you are maybe making 60,000 in one role, you’re looking for a new position, maybe you’re still in your current role, you know, it would not make any sense for us to place you had a position that also pays 60,000 or maybe 55,000, unless it was remote or something like that, right? Something that you were really after. So, you know, we would want to keep you in mind for a position that pays higher than that. We’re all for upward mobility, it really only makes sense for you to go upwards in a new transition like that. So it’s important to be transparent all the way around and there’s really no other way around.
It really is.
Pete Newsome 17:01
And of course, it’s a conversation you don’t have every day in public and there’s very few people in your life, who you probably do have that conversation with, that’s normal. But look at your recruiter as you would your doctor, you’re not going to hold back relevant information when you’re in for a physical if something’s hurting you, you’re going to be honest, even though it may be something embarrassing to talk about in public. Consider this the same way please, because we need that information to do the best work for you on the other side. But sometimes that also means being willing to share some information. It’s not so good. Carter, what things could you think about that maybe candidates would be hesitant to share but absolutely need to in order to head towards a successful outcome? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, background information is is important and we don’t just mean that from a background check standpoint, right. It goes all the way back into previous as previous experiences with with previous employees.
Carter Alexander 18:00
So, again, we need to keep complete transparency there, we get it, things happen, you know, maybe maybe it was the clients fault. You know, we don’t ever want to say that an interview or anything like that. But you know, it’s it’s good to have an understanding of what happened in your previous role so that we can try to avoid that with the next client. Maybe it’s a culture issue, right? Maybe that was just not the right type of environment for you. And you’re looking for a new one. Well, let’s try to talk about that culture. Let’s try to avoid that in the next opportunity. We also want to be transparent and try to avoid any type of double submittals. So that’s something that gets a little technical and staffing and something that you might not fully understand. But essentially, we don’t want to represent you to the same client. So not all clients we work with. We’re the only agency that works with them. So you want to make sure that you are being completely open and honest, if that client, you’ve already been submitted to that client. You’ve already signed some type of confirmation or right to represent some agencies, call and tell us hat you’re going to be sent over there.
Pete Newsome 19:03
So be very open and honest to you you’ve already applied for who you’ve already interviewed with because you know those things. If you are double submitted, it will ruin your chances of going on to any type of next steps, it’ll blacklist you with that particular staffing agency at the very least probably with the company who’s who received your resume, and it’s just an all around bad thing to do and easily avoidable. If you’re willing to take responsibility for where your resume is set. If you’re fully on the job market, and and and unemployed. keep a log of everyone you speak with date it, make sure it’s organized, be consistent with it and at the very, very least keep track of everywhere your resume is set. So you don’t run into that double submittal scenario and happens way too often these days. Because technology has evolved to a point where it’s made it very easy to just hit one button on one of the job boards we mentioned earlier, and submit your resume. And it just makes everyone look bad and scenario and the outcomes almost never good. So really work to take ownership of that it’s an important point to make. You mentioned backgrounds briefly glossed over a little bit, but I think it’s worthy of a little bit more exploration and thought on that because it’s also a topic that’s generally unpopular. If you’ve been arrested in the past, probably not something you want to broadcast, but it’s going to come up in terms of a background check if you’re offered a job. The vast majority of companies, I don’t want to assign a percentage, because I don’t really know, but let’s just say most, almost all, companies will run some form of drug and background check prior to letting someone start working for them and it’s going to come up and their laws have really restricted recruiters from being able to ask too many questions about that on the front end, we can ask if you’ve been arrested for a felony, but that doesn’t really or convicted of a felony rather, but that doesn’t really tell the whole story. And so it behooves you to go ahead and just put that out on the table. So there’s no surprises as you get farther down the road. And just like most companies will run those backgrounds prior to letting someone start most I found in our experience of the thousands of candidates we’ve placed will be pretty accommodating and reasonable in terms of people’s backgrounds and arrests. So don’t don’t shy away from it. It’s not fun to talk about we get it but it’s absolute necessary part of the conversation. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what else do we miss anything Carter’s in terms of working with that recruiter, establishing a relationship, anything else you’d want to add there?
Carter Alexander 22:00
I would say last step and this is something that that we do very frequently in our in our work day but it’s, it’s following up, you know, the following up process it is on you, it’s not necessarily on the recruiter, as you know, the recruiters are touching, you know, maybe up to 100 people a day. Make sure if you are serious about being on the market, you you, you bother that recruiter, you’re in their inbox every day, you you know, you give them calls frequently, and make sure that you know, you’re in kind of in front of their face for the next time that that position opens up. Now a good recruiter will keep you in a list you know, based on your skill set and, and make sure that you know, if you know, the position that you’re going after is what they have on their table, you’re going to be one of their first calls right? But you know, make sure that that you’re on top of that and you follow up with them and you make sure that that they know that you’re serious and that you’re interested.
Pete Newsome 22:49
I’m glad you mentioned that because it really it recruiters will often get a bad rap for lack of follow up and I you know, no one intends to do it. We as an industry as individuals have have good intentions, I truly do believe that but when days go by and candidates continue to you, the list of candidates you speak with continues to grow. Clients at times are unresponsive and so it’s not at the top of your your mind as a recruiter, what is a candidate you need to force the action so to speak, you need to be the one to drive the conversation. And the squeaky wheel gets the grease out of sight out of mind, however you want to put it. Don’t sit back and wait. You know, finding a job is something that you need to treat very aggressively. And I know that can sound like a bad word sometimes, but it’s the best word that I have, in terms of advice and how you should approach it. Don’t sit back and wait. Be the one calling the recruiter chasing them down and I’ll tell you in four corner, we love a candidate who shows that they’re genuinely interested in one of the biggest problems encounter are candidates who say the right things up front and don’t really mean it or express interest that wasn’t genuine. We would rather get all the bad up front early on, and then know that it candidates interested by their not their words in one phone call, but by their actions and behavior, are they accessible? are they following up? with us? That is a great sign and every recruiter wants to know that they have a motivated candidate. And Carter, can you can you touch on the importance of accessibility a little bit since?
Carter Alexander 24:34
Absolutely. Accessibility has got to be one of the most important things in the recruiting industry in whole and in reaching candidates. I mean, when we get an interview request from from a client, and if you are to that stage, being able to get ahold of you and set that, that interview up right away is so important. And really the reason for that is is if a client reaches out to us, hey, you know, we want to interview him, you know, tomorrow at this time, and I can give you a call and you pick up right away we scheduled that interview the client right away knows how interested you are. Wow, that was quick. You know, it’s it’s something that you know, we can get on the books right away and kind of move move the process along. If we have to wait a day or two, you know, time kills deals right? So you don’t you absolutely do not want to, to wait on that kind of stuff. Something that I like to kind of refer that to is maybe buying house if you’ve ever been in that kind of process. When I when I went through that process. Last year, I had my mortgage guy, you know, every single day, he needs something in five minutes, and oh, if I didn’t get it to him in five minutes, you know, we would you know, the deal could go through and however that would happen. So it’s just like that in the recruiting industry. And you know, you need to make sure that you are always accessible. You always have your phone close by especially if you are in those later stages.
Pete Newsome 25:48
Anyone in staffing or recruiting learns those subtle things where someone’s behavior tells a pretty big story. We know everyone gets al their messages all the time, it’s 2020 everyone gets a text everyone gets a call on on their mobile phone. And you’re going to be responsive and accessible to the people that you make it a priority to be in. So when a call or message isn’t returned in a timely fashion, it sends a pretty big indication of lack of interest to the recruiter whether you realize it or not, so please take that seriously. If If because they will move on otherwise. If we go 24 hours, and some cases less and wonder where the candidate is and can’t hear back from them or if they miss a time commitment. It’s a really big red flag for us and we just can’t afford to take that chance because the candidate has the recruiting firm’s name associated with them. So we we want to take the best care that we possibly can for the candidates. We represent. We have to do the same thing for our clients, we we are serving their interest in this. So if we can’t put our name on that person, because we don’t have confidence that they’re genuine, that they’re going to be accessible, that they’re truly motivated for the role, then it’s not worth the risk to us. So please take that part seriously.
Carter Alexander 27:19
And to kind of go off that with the time commitment aspect. You know, we get it, especially if you are in a position right now, but you’re looking to move into another one. You are busy, you are working, you have things to do from nine to five, it’s difficult, but what we need to know is when we can get a hold of you, or when you can, you know, a simple text Hey, I missed your call. I can give you a call on my lunch break in three hours, right? That’s important to us. That’s something we can report even back to the client if they need to know an answer right away because they understand as well you know, if especially if you’re working that’s that’s something that you know, everybody understands, and everybody can work around. So the time commitment thing is very important.
Pete Newsome 27:58
It’s good, I’m glad we’re glad that came up, because I don’t think we necessarily had it on our legs to cover. But it’s it could just as easily have been at the top of the lesson maybe should have. The last thing I want to talk about in some detail Carter is the different types of jobs that a recruiter could present to someone. And this is really aimed at at the audience who hasn’t worked a contract job before. And would when you hear that word, it sounds scary. If you haven’t done it, it sounds like it’s associated with uncertainty. But Carter when you encounter candidates who were were presenting them a contract job, and oftentimes that is the only way that someone is going to ultimately have a permanent job at our client starts with a contract, but ends with a direct position with our client. How do you describe that? How do you get someone over the hump with that from a fear standpoint? Yeah, you know, a contract versus contract.
Carter Alexander 29:00
Hire versus direct hire, these are all the different ways that we operate. But specifically, a contract role really can be your first step in the door with a new client. You know, if this is, you know, a rather large, you know, client that, you know, you’re very interested in working for getting that initial exposure to them, being able to, you know, show them what you’re about, you know, if they are able to bring you on at the end of the contract, and you’ve done a good job, there’s absolutely no reason not to, they don’t want your talent to go to a competitor, right. So the contract aspect is not necessarily anything to be afraid of. It is something that you can, you know, kind of walk into and gain that relationship right away and have them want to hire you everybody wants to work with who they want to work with. And I don’t even like to necessarily say it’s your trial period, right. If you go in there and you do the things that you know how to do and you are doing a good job just like you have at your previous positions, then then everything should go smoothly in that aspect if if there’s a chance to go on permanently from the beginning. And there in most cases, there are
Pete Newsome 30:00
If there’s if there’s no chance of that happening, the good recruiter and honest recruiter will tell you that up front. And really, there’s kind of three different ways of looking at this the different types of jobs, you could work with a recruiter forstraight contract, which is project based seasonal, it has a defined timeframe, that’s going to end when the job is done. And that’s that’s can be extended the relationship. The other is what people traditionally think of in terms of a headhunter would would would work on what we call a direct job, or sometimes called a permanent job with a company where we recruit you on behalf of our client, but you never go on our payroll, you’re hired directly by the staffing companies client or the recruiting firms client. But where that middle is, is what we call contract to hire and that’s where most of our jobs are filled these days, and even at manager level jobs. So that’s been a shift in the market for anyone who hasn’t been in the situation for 10 years, maybe longer. You may be surprised by that you may be really hesitant to pursue anything associated with the word contract, please do not be it will limit yourself unnecessarily.
And, you know, you just you’re, it’s it’s just um,
you know, just don’t do it. Don’t Don’t be afraid of that plays.
Pete Newsome 31:20
But feel free to ask the recruiter and then the recruiter at the end user company. In the interview, ask them for details. help them make you comfortable with that. So if you don’t feel like taking the recruiters word for it, that’s okay.
You can always ask in the interview, what the plan is for that job and use the word convert. That’s what we call it. That’s what the industry calls it. When could you expect to convert from a contractor to a direct employee?
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s two sided. As far as that goes, make sure you asked that question in the interview process so you can get that recruiters word for it.
If you if you want to understand further what these terms mean please go to our website for corner resources comm we have blog articles we’ve written defining the differences and there’s just a lot of information on our site where you can gain a better understanding of those so we get the terms are scary there’s a lot of uncertainty when you’re when you’re working with a third party recruiter for the first time and our site we really try to provide as much information as we can to give candidates the comfort level we believe that they should they should have so I think that’s a good place to close today Carter we’ve we’ve shared a lot of information
Pete Newsome 32:39
What did we miss we miss anything before we move on? I like I like where we’re headed here and we’re ending so I think it’s all good. Wonderful well thank you again for joining if you have or listening and you would like us to address a specific topic, please use the email firstname.lastname@example.org we’d love to hear from you and how tips and suggestions, anything that would would help you as a job seeker. We’re also have topics plan that would help folks who are in a hiring position. Even third party recruiters who we compete against, we want to help them to just elevate the industry in general because everyone wins that way. So please offer suggestions. We would love to hear from you. And if you’re willing, we would love it if you can rate review and subscribe to higher calling. But otherwise, Carter thanks and we appreciate everyone listening. Have a great day.