Top Reasons Why Employees Quit

Episode 50


Episode Overview

Let’s face it, employees leave. The bad news? You cannot completely prevent it from happening. But the good news? You can become familiar with the top reasons why employees quit and take steps to do something about it. 

On this episode of the Hire Calling Podcast, Pete brings in a list of the top ten reasons employees leave. Written almost two years ago, Pete and Ricky talk through each point and determine their relevance in the workforce today. While they agree that these reasons are undeniable influences, Pete and Ricky also believe they are equally preventable.

Why do you think your employees are leaving? Tune in to hear the top reasons and find out what you can do to stop it before it’s too late!

56 minutes

View transcript

Why Employees Quit

  1. Lack of purpose
  2. Low compensation
  3. Burnout from being overworked
  4. Bad leadership
  5. No feedback or recognition
  6. Little to no work life balance
  7. They are bored
  8. No employee development opportunities
  9. Bad recruiting strategies
  10. Toxic workplace culture

Advice for Retaining Your Employees

  • Remember the market dictates compensation, not you. No matter what you think your employee should be paid, it all comes down to what the market does. There’s an unrealistic expectation from what employees feel they deserve versus what their skill sets are worth, calibrate that.
  • Find good managers. A great manager could be the reason your employees stay, despite the long hours and hard work. Managers will shape your employees’ experience.
  • Hold your employees accountable, but be clear of your expectations early. Start at the hiring process and stay consistent. Give them opportunities to grow, or they will find somewhere else to feel appreciated.
  • Share the good and the bad. It’s your obligation as an employer to accurately portray what life is like at your organization. Don’t be afraid to share the bad, the right person will come along eventually.

Additional resources

Pete Newsome

About Pete Newsome

Pete Newsome is the president of 4 Corner Resources, the nationally acclaimed staffing and recruiting firm he founded in 2005. His mission back then was the same as it is today: to do business in a personal way, while building an organization with boundless opportunities for ingenuity and advancement. When not managing 4 Corner’s growth or spending time with his family of six, you can find Pete sharing his sales and business expertise through public speaking, writing, and as the host of the Hire Calling podcast.

Ricky Baez

About Rick Baez

Efrain “Ricky” Baez Jr. is a published human resources professional specializing in strategically aligning HR competencies to business goals with a down to earth, common sense approach. Ricky is a four- year veteran of the United States Marine Corps and holds a Masters degree in Human Resources (MHR) from Rollins College and an SPHR certification from the Human Resources Certification Institute. Ricky is also a faculty member for the Master of Human Resources program at Rollins College in Winter Park, Florida.

Transcript

Pete Newsome 00:00
You’re listening to The Hire Calling Podcast. I’m your host Pete Newsome. And this is your source for all things hiring, staffing, and recruiting. And of course, I’m joined by Ricky Baez. Ricky, how are you today?

Ricky Baez 00:11
Pete, I am doing great sir. How about you?

Pete Newsome 00:13
I’m doing awesome. I’m usually supposed to ask you why you’re doing well. So let me just get that out there.

Ricky Baez 00:20
Why am I doing well? I had a long, long day of games yesterday. It was a rare weekend where I can actually sit home and relax and watch a bunch of games and see the Bucs not give me a heart attack in the last two minutes of the game yesterday. It was great and they won.

Pete Newsome 00:35
That’s right. That’s right.

Ricky Baez 00:39
I mean, you know, Tom Brady got his issues. It’s okay. It was just good to see vintage Tom Brady. It was awesome.

Pete Newsome 00:46
The day where I started worrying about Tom Brady is well, it’s a different day. I think, Tom, I think Tom will be just fine on his own.

Ricky Baez 00:55
Yeah, I mean, what is it like $500 million? He’s gonna get to the sportscaster. Whenever he decides to finish playing football. I think he’s got something he has a few options here. Yeah, hopefully, a little he’s not worried about his 401k.

Pete Newsome 01:06
No, not at all. Well, today, we are going to worry about something else. And we’re going to worry about something related to employee turnover in the workplace, which is a topic that is often on employers’ minds regarding how to reduce it. Now, I was really excited to talk about this list that came out, I subscribe to an email list called exploding topics, which is supposed to alert me to different things going on, on Google that are trending and that are hot topics.

Pete Newsome 01:37
And so I saw that this article from NetSuite was trending. And of course, I let you know that, hey, this would be a great topic to speak about today when I saw this a couple of days ago. And it wasn’t until shortly before we started recording that I clicked on the link to see that it was an article from 2021. So not so exploding, it turns out. It’s a little it’s a little old.

Ricky Baez 02:02
Well, wait a minute, 2021. It was not till last year, January 2021.

Pete Newsome 02:08
Okay, gotcha. So I need to get my money back from my free subscription to this to this email list. Because the whole point is to share exploding topics. And I thought, hey, this is great. This just came out with perfect timing we’re recording in a couple of days and not so much.

Pete Newsome 02:28
However, we’re still going to talk about it. Because at the very least we can go through and see these issues and see what is still relevant today versus maybe what’s changed over the last year and a half a lot has changed, has it not?

Ricky Baez 02:41
It has. And I’m definitely gained because you know, it’s still post-pandemic or so I would assume that some of the things will still be relevant today. If there wasn’t a pandemic in the middle of it or before it, I would have a different point of view on it. But I think some of it won’t be relevant today. So let’s go through that list. Let’s see what we got.

Pete Newsome 03:02
Let’s go through it. Okay, so these are the top reasons employees leave. Number one lack of purpose. We think about that lack of purpose. I mean, that’s as number one I’m, I have no, I have questions that I gotta tell you.

Ricky Baez 03:22
I really think that hit spot, I really think out of everything happening today. And actually, I was in Destin, Florida, this past week, I was doing a presentation for the Florida clerk of the courts, and controllers for the conference. I gotta get that name, right? It’s kind of long, but they invited me over to speak to talk about leading Gen multigenerational teams.

Ricky Baez 03:46
And let me tell you, some of these different generations deleted generations, value purpose more than the previous generation that values more of the financial gain from the employer-employee relationship. So I kind of see the relevance there. It’s, you don’t think I know I do.

Pete Newsome 04:04
I think it’s Top 10 Top Five even. But at number one, given all the other things that go into why someone works, right? If I’m a little surprised, I think it’s nice. It’s that it’s number one, I think it says that there are a lot of workers out there viewing things in a great way. Right?

Pete Newsome 04:28
It’s more about it’s about more than money. For sure. Now, that is number two, the right compensation. But of all the things that are on this list to see that as number one is it’s just a little surprising to me because there’s just so many aspects of a job right and, and so you know, the purpose is up top.

Pete Newsome 04:54
I think it’s great if true, if true. I’m just a little skeptical from my years in staffing that have that is not necessarily indicative of what you know, I see day in and day out.

Ricky Baez 05:11
Here’s why I think the lack of employer purpose, it’s a really good spot at number one, is because, Pete, we’ve talked about this on the show, or Yeah, we have about the different options people have.

Ricky Baez 05:26
So today and 2022, almost 2023, if you’re not making enough money is really easy for you to just hop over to the gig economy, and go on Uber Eats, go and lift and do those things and make up that other area of your compensation goals, that you’re not getting in your current employment.

Ricky Baez 05:47
So if people have, if the right people have those kinds of opportunities, then they can make decisions, whether they stay or they go, based on what kind of purpose they have in their career because I would have to assume the gig economy wouldn’t be their lifelong career goal, whereas their career job would be.

Ricky Baez 06:05
So if they get compensation elsewhere, then maybe I’m thinking the purpose piece has some more heavy weight in their real life. I don’t know, that’s just me, you know, spinning off the top of my head, but I do see a lot of people today younger folks putting more value on what kind of purpose they feel in their current employment. So I see that I do see that.

Pete Newsome 06:29
Well, you know, let’s look at Sorry, I’m gonna sneeze here, Ricky.

Ricky Baez 06:38
So you get emotional, I completely understand this is, this is such a, it’s a trying time to talk about this.

Pete Newsome 06:47
So let’s, let’s say that it’s up there. But let’s hold off on what we think is what should be number one until we get to the end. But I do want to make a quick statement about the gig economy. Because I see it is significantly beyond something significantly beyond what you referred to, which is a side hustle job, right?

Pete Newsome 07:12
Do go to work for Uber or Lyft. In addition to your core job, when I think of it, I think of it as a replacement for a traditional job, not in addition to it. So when I think of the gig economy, I think of working as a consultant, working a freelancer. And as you know, from past conversations, I see that as a healthy, much healthier version of the traditional employee-employer relationship.

Pete Newsome 07:41
I tend to use that phrase a lot when describing it. So I think you can, in fact, find purpose, that way, by cutting out a lot of the things that you don’t like about your job, right? If someone wants to be, for example, a content writer or a graphic designer, or a software developer doesn’t really matter what I don’t think they go into that wanting to, to that function, necessarily wanting to do all the corporate stuff that time has to go along with it.

Pete Newsome 08:14
Now, maybe they do. And some people just like, go into meetings, go into meetings. Some people do, I’m sure, but if someone really wants to be a graphic designer and cut out all the background stuff that goes along with it, the freelance economy is absolutely the way to go.

Pete Newsome 08:31
So I just want to make that a side point. Because I think that is a way you have to separate what is purpose. And I guess we could do a whole podcast on that. Is it the purpose of the employer? Because that’s how I was thinking about it right in why I was skeptical, where, you know, very few employers, probably employees go to work, they’re thinking I’m really making the world a better place.

Pete Newsome 08:58
And if that’s the top criterion, companies that don’t aren’t able to answer yes to that question. Yes, we really are making the world a better place because of our mission and the role that we played because of our purpose. Then then I think that’s it, I think it’d be a lot of jobs that are hard to fill. But so so that’s why I really question I didn’t get to make that point fully.

Pete Newsome 09:23
Now maybe you look at it differently and thought, is this the employee’s purpose? Because that’s when I started thinking of the gig economy and why I brought that up. So which way did you interpret it? Before we move on? I know, I just took us down a rabbit hole.

Ricky Baez 09:36
No, I was looking at it from the employee’s perspective, right, the employee’s perspective. What because, you know, if, if, if the employee doesn’t have any purpose, and he or she doesn’t feel like they’re making a difference and then to perform the way they should the employer loses, right one way or the other.

Ricky Baez 09:50
Even if the employee stays there and gives subpar work and the employer allows it, they’re losing out. And even if they’re not paying a salary, that’s an empty position the employer still loses out. Right.

Ricky Baez 10:03
So it’s that’s how I was looking at it from the employee’s perspective plus, this is another show, but on the way back from Destin, I was listening to, a podcast version of a Wall Street Journal piece that they did an exon, exon, the oil company, how they’re a little bit stuck back in the old days and the top-down leadership and how their culture is and how they’re losing a lot of people.

Ricky Baez 10:32
Because since there’s such a large organization, like a big cruise ship, it’s taken them a long time to make that right or left turn into what the workforce today is actually looking for. So that’s, that’s where I was aiming from, from the employee perspective, I gotta send you that piece from the Wall Street Journal. It was absolutely amazing.

Pete Newsome 10:49
I see it. I mean, it’s, I worked for one of those companies thought that sounded I had a difficult time evolving, and you either keep up or you get passed by and I know that what happened to your employer, it’s what in some ways mine had to fight off, it’s still probably fighting off. It’s been a long time. But yeah, that you know, the world, the world changes, you have to change along with it.

Pete Newsome 11:17
So okay, so the purpose is number one. But you know, I still will say, Why did you go there in the first place? Right? If you didn’t think you were going to have the purpose. So reason not to take a job. Sure. The reason for turnover. Okay, I’m ready to move on from it. But I still think it’s number one, not from what I saw in episode number one.

Pete Newsome 11:47
And that one was just not even exciting to talk about. So how about number two, which is employee compensation as a reason to work or poor compensation, of course, that is what’s up there, especially over the maybe this article, even being in January 2021 was a little ahead of its time but in a prophetic way.

Pete Newsome 12:08
That is certainly what began to happen not long after, we saw a lot of turnovers, because of increased salaries that have happened, you know, in a very prevalent way over the past year and a half. So I would tell you over the past two years, that would be number one. But what’s your take on that?

Ricky Baez 12:25
I still think it is because I still see job numbers coming out. I see people that are gaining employment. But the question still is, is it are they gaining employment at a compensation they’re okay with? And they’re going to continue on as a career or as a stepping stone until they find what they’re really looking for. And it’s funny that we’re talking about this right now. It was just on LinkedIn earlier today.

Ricky Baez 12:48
And one of my attorney friends just happened to put in put a post up about a coffee place here in Orlando, talking about how they’re looking for employees anywhere between 10 and $15 an hour, and he pointed out is after September 1 Orlando’s minimum wage now is $11 an hour and that post is still up. And you know, his idea is like, we still have organizations that are still operating on, let’s pay as little as possible.

Ricky Baez 13:17
Regardless of what kind of talent we begin, it just so happens that this organization has switched out there, hiring ads, and now it’s illegal because they’re looking to offer $1 less an hour than what the minimum wage is here in Central Florida. But I don’t know if you’re going to agree with what I’m about to say, Pete, because you’re, you know, you’re a CEO of a company, and you’re in charge of finances of that company.

Ricky Baez 13:40
And I’m an HR guy, and here’s how I look at it. If somebody is worth X amount of dollars, and the person in the interview, asks for less than that, but you know, they’re worth more. I tell all of my hiring managers to pay them what you think they’re worth, even if it’s more than wonder asking.

Ricky Baez 14:00
Because if you pay them what they want because they don’t want, they don’t know their own worth, we live in an environment where LinkedIn, really good talent gets hit on four or five times a week, they get those emails, those recruiters, I used to do it too, right? Like all of you, this person looks like he’ll be good at this organization.

Ricky Baez 14:18
Let me hit him up and see if they’re interested. And if they throw a number that’s way bigger than what they’re currently getting right now. That’s gonna be an awkward conversation with the leader.

Pete Newsome 14:26
So the question is if someone is willing to take less should you still pay them more? Right?

Ricky Baez 14:35
I think if the person is willing to take less because he or she does not know they are worth more not even willing right?

Pete Newsome 14:42
If they’re if they if they’re happy to take less if they’re ecstatic to take less I said but my answer may surprise Well, I have to answer from two perspectives one as 4 Corner internally, right, the company that I own, I would say yes, we want to pay what we think the market demands, and what will keep the employee happy and be as competitive as we can. Right?

Pete Newsome 15:12
That is, of course, we want to do that. And so it’s not out of the question to pay someone more. And also, we have our first starting salaries, we have a range, and we’re not going to go below, it’s because someone’s willing to accept it. So we wouldn’t do that. But we also have an obligation on the client side when we’re recruiting, to not spend our client’s money unnecessarily.

Pete Newsome 15:35
So if one of the things that we do in our staffing and recruiting process is to first understand what the candidate is seeking in terms of compensation before ever offering anything in return. So we really don’t run into that for that very reason. And so we want to find the right balance, right, you know, for on behalf of the client, and on behalf of the candidate, our goal is a staffing business to really make both parties happy.

Pete Newsome 16:02
So we have to walk that line. But when you’re doing it, right, it always begins with first understanding what the candidate is looking for before you ever share the salary data. So there are a lot of reasons for that, in the recruiting process that I believe is important, that is also a different show, which I’m happy to talk about at any time. But that would be a how-to recruit when it’s done right episode. I think.

Ricky Baez 16:29
That’s right. So I think we’re on the same page there. I think we are.

Pete Newsome 16:32
Yeah. And so it’s interesting that this was written when it was because we have seen so many jobs offer significantly higher comp over the past year and a half than they were prior. And given the announcements of the past week with the big layoffs in the tech space.

Pete Newsome 16:53
Just had another announcement late last night with meta saying they’re going to now lay off a significant portion of their workforce, whatever that means. That tide may be turning a little bit the because the compensation numbers just grew so fast.

Pete Newsome 17:10
I’m curious to see how that’s gonna play out over the next few months to a year or even even more as the economy begins to shift. I don’t think it’s any different than the stock market, real estate market, or even the crypto market.

Ricky Baez 17:24
Right. It’s things that get inflated because there’s a there’s a lot of pomp and circumstance but then it’ll self-correct. It’ll correct to where the true value is going to be. And I think we have seen that before in the workforce space. And then obviously, the pandemic came in and threw a curveball in there, then there’s a lot of different things happening in that kitchen now.

Ricky Baez 17:45
And the food that comes out, I’m starving. I know I’m talking about food. Here I go right? Can I go for an episode without talking about food? You know, now you get this meal that comes out that is so familiar to us. So what I think right now, Pete, I think it’s it’s right now, there’s a lot of people, a lot of organizations last year 2021 that we’re paying a lot more just to fill a position, not necessarily that’s what the position is worth.

Ricky Baez 18:08
But because they were in the fight of the back and forth and trying to get that requisition fill. Right. But then when the pencil comes the other way, then everybody’s gonna self-correct faster. We’ve seen these layoffs right now. So there’s a correction on its way.

Ricky Baez 18:22
But I think there’s a there’s I think there’s an unrealistic expectation from the average employee on what he or she feels they or deserve versus what their skill sets are worth. And we need to calibrate that. Because I think there’s a huge gap there.

Ricky Baez 18:39
That’s creating a decision that we’re talking about right now about poor compensation. But do you think so?

Pete Newsome 18:43
Well, I think the gap is, I think it’s just supply and demand are very simple so if a prospective client comes to us and says they’re having trouble hiring, then they need help with staffing. If the reason they need help is that they can’t find anyone at the market rate. Not then that’s not like a top business we want to take on because that’s a problem. We can’t solve it as a staffing company.

Pete Newsome 19:13
We have tools, we have the knowledge, we have resources, we have experience, and we know how to find the right person for the job. What we can’t impact is justify nor would I want to, justify why a candidate should be interested in a salary or an hourly rate lower than what the market pays it provided everything else is relatively equal.

Pete Newsome 19:37
Do you know what I mean? So I don’t think the market ultimately dictates that now the good news for employees is in many skilled positions, they’re still going to be a demand that can’t be met by the labor supply.

Pete Newsome 19:53
I don’t see that going away. It’ll but companies if times get bad enough and we could be heading in this Action, they’ll just put things on hold, they’ll tighten their belts, they’ll double up with the work that other employees have to do. I mean that we’ve seen that in previous recessions.

Pete Newsome 20:12
So, ultimately, I think the market dictates it, it doesn’t matter what the employer thinks they should pay. It’s what the market is. And that’s how it should be.

Ricky Baez 20:22
It’s, um, with your 1,000% therapy, let the market speak for itself. And just and just let it do its thing, let the machine run its own without any outside influence, let it organically do it.

Pete Newsome 20:33
Absolutely. So that’s a good segue, I think inadvertently, what I said about doubling up on work and into number three, which is being overworked.

Pete Newsome 20:42
So that is the price of asking your employees to do way too much or one person doing the job of two or more is that they will get burned out. They will leave. There’s there has to be a balance there. And so being overworked I mean, I think that’s as old as time itself, right?

Ricky Baez 21:04
When you hear a quick funny story that has to do with that. I was in class last week, and I’m not going to mention the name of the student, but I will mention the name of the restaurant.

Ricky Baez 21:12
So one of my students was we were having the same conversation about understaffing and staffing because I mean, the class was called after all recruitment, selection, and retention. So he and I are having a conversation and he told the course something that happened to him the night before, which was on a Monday night, that he went to the after class for a different class. He went to McDonald’s because he was starving.

Ricky Baez 21:32
So by 11:30 at night, and he went through the drive-thru, nobody would come over. Right. So he waited there, the restaurant is open, and he waited there for good five minutes, which is a lot longer than I would have waited. So he actually pulled over when to knock on the door.

Ricky Baez 21:47
And this is what I will have to assume as his brand new employee, a young girl crying her eyes out, saying I’m the only one here to have my manager no call no show. I’m waiting for the director to get here. He’s flying in from Tennessee. Oh, boy. And I don’t have any help. Do you have a couple of hours to help me? Start to love because are you serious? Just like yes, she wanted to pay me $14 an hour for a couple of hours to help her do the orders while the Regional Director flew in from Tennessee. Oh, man.

Ricky Baez 22:22
And I’m like, wow, I mean, just just just take a step back. And just think about what that means. You got managers who call no-show this. That’s this poor employee by herself, crying to the point that she’s asking what I will have to assume as the only customer and 15 minutes to say I need your help I pay you $14 an hour.

Ricky Baez 22:44
If that doesn’t tell you what is happening in the workforce today when you’re talking about inadequate compensation or poor compensation. And the lack of positions being filled that formula equals employees being insanely overworked to the point that they’re asking customers to help out. So what do you think about that?

Pete Newsome 23:05
Well, first of all, I want to hire I want to hire immediately that employee who stayed in and dealt with that, instead of shutting the doors and running that I’m I want to track her down and hire. Um, it’s a tough situation. Because on one hand, you say we’ll pay more, right? That’s easy.

Pete Newsome 23:26
Well, and that is you pay enough you can fill in a position there’s no question in my mind about that. I don’t care what the parameters are. There is a price and it may be a price someone’s unwilling to pay. So be it but there is a price. The problem is a cost has to get passed along somehow.

Pete Newsome 23:46
And so if in this restaurant scenario, if you said well, double the pay, you can have employees. And that’s the easy answer that you see. We are on social media when the subject comes up, right, employers clearly aren’t paying enough, okay, fine, then they have to pass that increase on to the customers, and then are the customers going to stay?

Pete Newsome 24:07
So that is the real reality of that’s why it’s really hard to run a successful business. I mean, it’s an admirable thing, when you think of the challenges of doing that in a retail environment or a fast food environment. And I have to confess, I’m constantly amazed by how well they typically are staffed, given the low pay the really tough work of standing on your feet, and customers that generally aren’t exactly overly friendly.

Pete Newsome 24:38
They’re in a hurry. They’re impatient. They want their order. It’s a high-turn environment where things are probably going wrong constantly and they’re getting yelled at and so that’s its own issue. But it’s a tough one because it’s just not it’s not as simple as we’ll just pay the employee more.

Pete Newsome 25:00
No, because there’s a domino effect that happens once at once. Once that takes place and you have to be a successful business, you have to find the right balance, where you can be profitable, pay employees who are going to stay and be happy to show up, and then still be competitive in the market, whatever your market is.

Pete Newsome 25:21
I mean, that is now it’s one on one. But it’s really, really complex to pull off consistently over time.

Ricky Baez 25:28
That’s right, and it’s in and you said a raven in there, it’s, there has to be a balance, right? And it really depends on the profit margin of the organization. Because it looks, I know a lot of McDonald’s or franchises owned and but if you take a look at the cruising industry, their profit margin is so insane.

Ricky Baez 25:46
And the reason I know it’s insane is that we were not sailing that taking that one customer for a year and a half and not one of them went out of business. So that tells you what kind of profit margins they had.

Pete Newsome 25:56
Well, we could probably talk for a bit about where they find their employees. And that is a big one for me because I know where they find their employees.

Ricky Baez 26:01
And it’s not in the United States, hence why a lot of their chips always fly a non-American flag, right?

Pete Newsome 26:10
They’re beating the system. That’s far better. Yeah, for better, it would just everyone knows that. But that’s a whole nother show. It isn’t I think this is the fourth thing we’ve said a whole different show fills up the rest of the year.

Ricky Baez 26:23
Pete, I mean, we’re almost 30 minutes in and we’re on number three. So let’s keep going. and a half. What do we get? Well, bad managers? Yep, bad managers. You know, we’ve all had them.

Pete Newsome 26:37
That one, you know, I think over time, when I read articles like this, and let’s call it for what it is, I mean, sometimes you do surveys, most of the time, there’s a lot of subjectivity to these certainly are these lists of top however many reasons, but bad managers are always near the top. In fact, I’m surprised that’s not number one.

Ricky Baez 27:00
Here, I’m not to say that. Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Newsome 27:03
So you know, a good manager or a great manager can keep someone Despite long hours and hard work and low compensation even. But a bad manager is just as miserable to be around.

Ricky Baez 27:19
I’m about to say something, but just hear me out. I like bad managers. Here’s why. If you’re trying to be a leader, if you’re trying to learn all the different things about leadership, what you should do? comps, it’s difficult for you to see what you should do as a good leader.

Ricky Baez 27:39
But when you are around the world, the recipient of horrible leadership, it is evident what you should not do.

Ricky Baez 27:46
And that is a great experience for anybody to go through, I would want each and every one of my employees to go through a phase of reporting on their horrible leader that way, they know what it feels like as a recipient, and they will think twice once they’re they’re in that position, because people who grew up with great leadership, and as he grew up in a career sense, yeah, you can emulate that. Right?

Ricky Baez 28:12
But I think it’s a better experience. Overall, if you feel how much that hurts if you feel the heartache of reporting to somebody who’s toxic will you know what not to do later on? I don’t know if that makes sense.

Pete Newsome 28:24
No, it does. I think it applies, to a lot of things where you are shaped by your experiences good and bad. And so you do want those good experiences or good leaders to emulate.

Pete Newsome 28:37
But the bad ones in many ways remember those just as much if not more, and you want to avoid whatever that behavior was that you consider you consider bad. No question. And anyone hearing this, like me, probably as you were talking probably has, like the image of someone that’s just popping up in their mind right now. I certainly do.

Pete Newsome 29:03
Have someone that made every day of a job that had been a pleasant and happy place for me to go and the only variable was this new manager that changed and it went from great to just awful overnight. And I’ve I didn’t handle that situation correctly as an employee.

Pete Newsome 29:26
And that’s probably been the biggest benefit I’ve had from that experience over the years is sharing that story over and over and over of how not to deal with a bad manager but that is also a different show. That’s another show you know what let me ask you this one thing before we move to the next one.

Ricky Baez 29:44
Do you think you would have had an amazing experience when you miss a W two employee when he was fulfilled at work when you were when you if he was fulfilled at work if you had great leadership and you had a direct career path that you’d think you would have still started your own business?

Pete Newsome 30:01
No. No, I wouldn’t. I just proved my point. Well, but Well, yes and no, I did not start my business. Because of a bad manager, I started it because of a lack of opportunity. As, I wanted it right I in so know, the bad manager situation was not at the employer that I worked for prior to starting 4 Corner.

Pete Newsome 30:29
What that was about was just it was a, it was a compilation of multiple experiences. And really just the feeling that working for big organizations, which I did over a decade, prior to starting the business was that I just was too restricted by processes and procedures.

Pete Newsome 30:49
And just the situation I wasn’t, it was It wasn’t about any individuals, I was fortunate to work with a lot of great folks at my last company where I was for five years prior to starting the business.

Pete Newsome 31:00
But it was just a really big shift to turn sort of like what you were referencing earlier, with the Exxon story, where I knew that they could not operate at a speed that would make me happy. And I knew that I could not despite my best efforts, how hard I worked, how well I did, I was not going to make a difference that I just say I left for a purpose.

Ricky Baez 31:33
You left for the number one thing on the list.

Pete Newsome 31:36
I’m looking at the list right now, right and purpose, compensation, that was part of it not not not not overworked, because that’s, that’s something that when you do go out on your own if you do it right, you’re going to work harder than ever.

Pete Newsome 31:52
So that’s usually a surprise to people, they think that you have more time when you actually have less, but um, no, it wasn’t it wasn’t directly due to bad manager, it was situational. And but I otherwise wouldn’t have, would have probably done it. I bring that up.

Ricky Baez 32:11
Because you know, a lot of people, a lot of people just don’t want to go through a negative experience at work. They don’t want to go through that at work. And I tell people, there’s value in that there’s value in going through those negative experiences.

Ricky Baez 32:25
So it’s, there’s this book that I read that I think I shared with you, it’s the subtle art of not giving the F word. And it’s a real book, right? And, that book, talks about how you get so much valuable information for your life and wherever you want to go in life by attacking negative experiences head-on instead of avoiding them.

Ricky Baez 32:47
Yeah, because it’s like, it’s like your own life GPS, self-correcting and saying I make a left, make a right. And but if you’re happy if he was content, I don’t think we will be having this conversation, right?

Pete Newsome 32:59
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn’t that I had an overwhelming desire to go out on my own. It was just that as time went on. And as you know, I learned more and had more experiences it came to I came to a point where I wanted to do business where I thought it should be done.

Pete Newsome 33:18
I mean, that was more than anything else. It was no one’s fault. That operator yeah, worked for a company with 16,000 employees in my last job, they, my individual desires weren’t going to make much of a difference in an organization that size.

Pete Newsome 33:37
So it was also about proving that proven that the way I wanted to work could actually function and could be beneficial. And I wanted to create a company for others that I couldn’t find as an employee. I mean, that was really what ultimately was a catalyst for leaving.

Ricky Baez 33:58
So here’s what I want people to get from the show today. Seriously, here’s what I heard. You. You were not happy with your situation. And you did something about it. Yes. What do people need to take away from this? You did something about it. You didn’t complain. You didn’t go on social Why don’t know what their social media back?

Pete Newsome 34:16
Yeah, late. Yeah, LinkedIn. LinkedIn was around, that’s for sure. Some of the other platforms and they’re still complaining about it and you know, fight for 15 Now that you was doing that, right?

Ricky Baez 34:27
But you say, You know what, I’m gonna go on and create this. And that’s how I wish more people did that. I really wish more people took that kind of time.

Ricky Baez 34:36
And there was no better country in the world than this one right here to actually make that happen. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s definitely easier than any other country in the world to make that happen. Its reality is there, the opportunities there, it provided.

Pete Newsome 34:52
The idea is there and that’s something that has come up a lot over the years people would say, hey, I want to go out on my own and do what you did. Why that’s always why. Because it sounds great to not have to work for someone else.

Pete Newsome 35:08
And I know, wrong. working for someone else has a lot of benefits. I slept much better prior to going out on my own in many respects, but it all is like it has, you have to have the right idea, and you have to have the right. I’m gonna say its purpose in what you’re going to do. So otherwise, it’s not about just doing it, just do it, and you’re gonna fail.

Ricky Baez 35:40
And I’ll tell you this, if you’re concerned about work-life balance, entrepreneurship is not for you.

Pete Newsome 35:47
Well, I mean, so let’s look first not at first sight. So we’re taking a different route here than I think we intended. So let’s say I’m going to, I’m going to read a couple of things from the rest of this list. Yeah, if we’re talking about going out on your own, and we’re thinking in terms of why people leave a job.

Pete Newsome 36:05
So here are the things on the list that you’re not going to find as an entrepreneur, you’re not going to find on your own. being overworked, right, you prepare to work 24/7 Whether you have to or not, you should be prepared for bad managers.

Pete Newsome 36:23
Well, how about no manager at all? That was sometimes that’s a worse fate. And that was I’m sure I’ve shared this with you before. I don’t know if we’ve talked about it on the podcast. But that was probably the biggest adjustment for me. When I did go out on my own was to not have anyone to bounce things off of I didn’t have a peer I didn’t have anyone senior to me.

Pete Newsome 36:45
And that was a lonely feeling. At first, that lasted for years, and it was something I missed. So, for people who go out on their own with a partner, or two, there are inherent challenges that go along with that. I’ve always been envious of that. Because I think in many cases, one plus one equals a number greater than two when it comes to people working together.

Pete Newsome 37:07
And for me, personally, I just missed having a sounding board. There’s in So while people outside of the business, why friends family, it’s just not the same. You know how that is right?

Pete Newsome 37:23
Anyone with a spouse who’s not tied to their work knows it’s just not the same. They’ll listen, and they’ll nod they’ll act like they understand and you’ll give the best advice they can. But it’s not the same, right? Not if they’re not living it day to day.

Pete Newsome 37:38
So bad manager versus no matter picks your poison, almost little to no recognition or feedback that’s next on the list. Okay, no recognition whatsoever. Not for not until you accomplish something and feedback. I guess that’s kind of consistent with what I just said, right?

Pete Newsome 37:58
Because the only feedback you’re getting from your employees is that you know, that’s always jaded and intentional or not. So I would say that’s its own challenge. Here we go. Ready? Poor work-life balance, okay. Well, you don’t have you have a balance? It’s 100% work. Until you and if you do, if you put in the work now because it takes years for people to really put together a successful business, right?

Ricky Baez 38:33
The odds of success in a business first starting out are not in your favor. They’re not in anybody’s favor. But you really have to believe in it so much and have that purpose to where failure is not an option. But if it is, you’ve learned from it and you continue on you keep chucking away because, at the end of the day, consistency is what pays off. And not everybody has that patience these days.

Ricky Baez 38:57
Pete I’ve noticed people try something for about five months and then they just give up you know, Take me, for example, I go to the gym for an hour I don’t see immediate results. I get upset I cancel my membership.

Pete Newsome 39:07
What’s wrong here?

Ricky Baez 39:08
I was in theory fitness. No, but I mean, that consistency is key. So I get that especially you know with the with if you’re working for a W two employee, look at that poor lady over at that McDonald’s.

Ricky Baez 39:24
Yeah, bad manager because she had two of them. No call no show. Poor, obviously poor work-life balance because she’s there crying. I mean, I feel bad for her asking for a random customer to help out.

Ricky Baez 39:35
I mean, you don’t know if that’s a serial killer. I mean, he’s in my class. I doubt he is but still. But I still don’t know. We’ll see. You’re still here. Yeah, it’s still there. But then you know what one right after that, which I find interesting. Pete, so it’s poor work-life balance, but then boredom. So boredom is one of them. And I’m trying to understand that because can you work really hard and be overworked? And be bored?

Pete Newsome 40:05
I think you can, can you?

Ricky Baez 40:07
Because if you do that the opposite has to be true, right? Because if you love what you’re doing is fulfilling, you cannot be overworked.

Pete Newsome 40:16
So let me ask, let me ask this question. I, this is something that I think about a lot. I don’t remember what boredom feels like. I know, I’ve been bored. I remember the last time I can definitively say I was bored was in college, either over the summer or on a weekend when no one was around to do anything it was pre-internet days because I’m old.

Pete Newsome 40:44
And I had nothing to do with the internet, which virtually everyone has. Is boredom. Still a thing? I don’t remember the feeling. I want to know what it feels like, again, because to me, that’s I’m trying to work myself into boredom.

Pete Newsome 41:03
That’s all of life, where I can wake up and say, I have nothing to do. And that seems so far from reality. Do you remember what it feels like to be bored?

Ricky Baez 41:14
Wow. So I don’t know if you meant that to be that profound. But just think about what you just said, You do not remember what it feels like to be bored?

Pete Newsome 41:25
No. Isn’t that interesting? Me. And I know I’ve thought about this a lot over the years, this is not just a thought that popped into my head. And I’ve said it many times where it’s almost odd to think, I don’t remember the field and remember having it but I don’t know if I’ll ever have it again.

Ricky Baez 41:44
I’ll tell you, I remember a time when I was and I’m about to put it out there. Because I got some people out there who listen, right? who worked with me and this other company. I’m just gonna say when I worked at Sears, Home Improvement transform Co.

Ricky Baez 41:58
I had a team, I had such an amazing team that we had this HR game, so down pack that it was just punching numbers, boom, we’re doing this, we’re doing that, and the machine worked. And I’m not gonna lie, the last few years there. The only reason I showed up to work is that I had such an amazing team.

Ricky Baez 42:16
And I had an awesome boss, Lena, if you’re listening, this is for you, ma’am. So I had an awesome boss back then, you know, and in, when you’re bored, right? You try to find other things out other things to do. But let me tell you, it’s when you have a great team, you show up for them.

Ricky Baez 42:32
And if my team and my boss weren’t there, I would have resigned, I would have resigned man, you know, the reason I’m not there anymore is that a pandemic finally hit them. And it became my turn to be let go, which I completely understood. But that was the last time I was truly bored though which is interesting, you will shame them for letting you be bored.

Pete Newsome 42:53
Right or not they’re not giving you greater challenges. I don’t know that you can be bored and overworked though, is that? Is that a thing? I mean, I guess if you’re just doing a repetitive task is that because this really doesn’t. This could apply to anyone in the workforce. And I know that I do think that if you were I suspect it, there’s a lot of jobs that are just so repetitive in nature, or your brain is shut off.

Pete Newsome 43:21
But your body’s having to be active and involved. So it’s not like you can pull up YouTube and learn a new language, or something like that. Right. This is why I say I’m never bored because there’s just no shortage of information that’s accessible and learning opportunities and yeah, I can see it. I just it’s a foreign concept to me,

Ricky Baez 43:44
because I remember before I got bored, we got used to doing these job fairs, and they were supposed to get like eight hours, but so many people showed up. We were there for 12, 13, and 14. We were there for a long time. But we were having such a fun time that we were tired.

Ricky Baez 44:01
But we knew what the assignment was. We knew what we had to do. We were having fun with it. And we will all have a blast. So was I overworked? I was tired. But I don’t know if I was able because I was having a blast doing it. So I don’t know. That’s it. Now that’s a philosophical one. Oh, man, you’d be bored. If you’re not can you be? Yeah. Can you be bored and overworked at the same time? And I think you can.

Pete Newsome 44:26
Yeah, they standing at a booth at a conference for 12 hours a day that can fit both of those criteria. No, no, no, this is this.

Ricky Baez 44:38
So this is one where we had everybody come into the call center and we had music. We had hot dogs. We had such a great time with it.

Ricky Baez 44:48
And one of those days the roof fell. What it didn’t feel. It just failed. It rained crazily. And the ironic part of it was a roofing company. It was a home improvement company. It was that’s a whole nother show. This is the fifth one we do. So how long has it been eight hours?

Pete Newsome 45:06
I think so. I think so. Okay, so, so word though. No, we’re not bored. Everyone listening perhaps but not so. Okay. So no opportunity for growth that one now sees? That to me should be up there, right? I’ve hit a ceiling, I have nowhere to go. If you are ambitious if you have desires to advance. Absolutely, you should get out of there. I think that one is a bit of a no-brainer.

Ricky Baez 45:35
I don’t know, man. Because to me, no-ops, okay, so lack of purpose as every employee for compensation every employee, bad managers, every employee, no opportunity for growth. That’s the only employees who have a value that are the people who want to grow.

Pete Newsome 45:50
That’s right. So they leave when they don’t see the opportunity. Correct?

Ricky Baez 45:53
Yeah so okay, got it. Because I’m thinking, Okay, I’m sorry, I’m thinking everybody, so because not, that’s not gonna apply to everybody. But you’re right. If they want to grow, the opportunity is in there, they’re going to go somewhere else when they are appreciated, and that opportunity is there.

Pete Newsome 46:07
Well, there are so many roles. If you look at what you were talking about a little bit ago, the fast food restaurant, there are only so many places to go within the scope of that restaurant. And if you don’t even have to be what I would consider overly ambitious to conclude there’s, I have to do something else if I want my career to continue to advance.

Pete Newsome 46:34
So I think that it’s very, very common, I would argue that it’s it should be higher on the list. But maybe, as we continue to obsess over the order of this, maybe we should just say it’s not in any particular order. And then you will feel much better about it

Ricky Baez 46:51
every year, we should do like they do like the AP polls for college football, we should put a top 10 list every year. And let’s see what happens in top 10 of one, top 10 reasons people leave their jobs or stay at their jobs.

Pete Newsome 47:05
Well, we have this one that we can rearrange after I. But here’s the thing, and we forgot we forgot this was from 2021. And whether or not it’s relevant, I think we can conclude it’s still extremely relevant

Ricky Baez 47:20
today. I don’t think we haven’t said anything that we’re like, that’s not relevant today. I think they all are.

Pete Newsome 47:24
They all are for sure. That’s right. Yeah. So we have two left, bad hiring procedures.

Ricky Baez 47:32
I mean, what does that mean? You know, kind of laugh at my job. All right. You’re on.

Pete Newsome 47:39
So I mean, yeah, I guess I mean, if we have to, you know, what? For every top 10 list, do you have to have one or two to round it out? Because you can’t you want an even number you want that even 10? Because the top nine list doesn’t have quite the appeal. Maybe this is that one, maybe I just think it’s hilarious.

Ricky Baez 47:57
When we say be all apply, the very next one does not apply.

Pete Newsome 48:02
I don’t know that. But yeah, but that didn’t apply because it’s a year and a half later. That’s it is a weird one. But okay, let’s, let’s understand. What it probably means is some percentage of employees weren’t during the interview process during the hiring process, and someone missed the mark. Right?

Pete Newsome 48:02
They didn’t explain the job the right way, the employee thought the environment was going to be different than it actually turned out to be or the expectations weren’t portrayed properly, whatever it might be. It happens and so if you have to have 10 on the list, then I would say yeah, that probably is likely as anything else we could come up with to round it out. That’s my best that’s best. That’s the best I have.

Ricky Baez 48:54
With you, I’m with you. It’s it. It’ll round it out. But I think this next one because that’s what I was trying to research right now. This next one, which is the last one on the list is toxic or negative company culture and I’m looking at that one. Peep I think every single thing on that list can fall under the toxic or negative company culture umbrella. Yeah, that’s what defines it.

Pete Newsome 49:16
Right?

Ricky Baez 49:16
Every the entire thing. Yes, everything. So lack of purpose, poor compensation, and being overworked by bad managers. All of them fall under that umbrella when you think I do.

Pete Newsome 49:25
I also think that phrase is overused. Do you agree toxic or Yes, I think I think toxic? I think toxic is overused. I think that’s a go-to for its toxic environment. There is a toxic environment. I got I was scolded at work. It’s a toxic environment. I was I had you know, I think I think a demanding environment. I think an intense environment. I think one with high expectations is often confused with a toxic environment. Do you agree? or is this old school? You know, me coming out too much?

Ricky Baez 50:03
no, no. So so I’m, I’m smiling because it reminded me of a conversation that I had with an employee where this person would tell me that they are in a toxic environment. And when I would ask them why?

Ricky Baez 50:15
And they would tell me because their manager would always correct them on their job, they would always tell them, this is right, and this is wrong. And then I told that person, I’m like, You know what, there’s a new test a new phrase for that.

Ricky Baez 50:27
And this person is like, oh, yeah, what isn’t? I’m like, It’s called being held accountable. That’s what that is. That’s not a toxic environment when you’re being held accountable for your job. And not everything in your job is hunky dory, right there.

Ricky Baez 50:41
There are going to be some ups and some downs, some pizzas, and some valleys, but the valleys do not mean toxic. It’s not. So I agree with you that I think that word is overused. But the word being overused does not mean that an environment like that doesn’t exist, we just got to find another word.

Pete Newsome 51:00
Well, it environment that’s not good, for the employee, by whatever criteria they apply, is one thing. But I agree with you 1,000%, it doesn’t mean it’s toxic. I went, I worked in an environment where we were expected to work 70-plus hours a week without exception. That was not that was just the norm.

Pete Newsome 51:31
And it was demanded. There were things regularly thrown in the office and you know, across the office, and the language was just awful. By today’s standards, that would be toxic, to a point where you can’t even fathom. Yeah, that was a toxic environment. Right. But I don’t, I don’t think most of the time it’s used it really, it’s probably, it’s probably a little exaggerated.

Ricky Baez 52:04
It depends on the environment. And, here’s what I mean, I was in an organization over about 25 years ago that I was yelled at, and for the first three months of it, I was yelled at almost my entire four years there. And I’m about to celebrate its birthday later this week. That’s called the Marine Corps. Right?

Ricky Baez 52:23
So a different environment, because I don’t think that was toxic. To me, that’s what was expected. And let me tell you, there was a lot of I was just talking about peaks and valleys, there were a whole lot of valleys in that environment, right? But I still have a special place in my part in my heart for the time I spent there.

Ricky Baez 52:43
And the brothers that I have, and the relationships that I build in that time. So I think what’s expected in an organization, also plays a part in whether something is toxic or not.

Ricky Baez 52:53
Because if you go into an organization expecting not to be yelled at, and all these are happening, and that’s what happened, that’s not what you expected. Right? So yeah, you’re gonna call that toxic? What did you expect though?

Pete Newsome 53:03
Well, and maybe and maybe that’s why the bad hiring procedures come in. Because if you don’t, if you explain life as a Marine, much different Lee than it actually is if you tried to paint it as a rosy picture.

Pete Newsome 53:18
However, you could do that. I don’t know. But if a recruiter you know, didn’t position it appropriately, you can pretty quickly decide that the hiring procedures were bad and that it was a toxic environment. And I have a feeling they probably complain about their manager too along the way. On the two days, they lasted right, that open door policy is locked.

Pete Newsome 53:43
So I think that I think that I think that’s a good way to round this out. Because it’s so much of it. It has to do with knowing what you’re getting into as an employee. And that that obligation, really lies should lie on the employer to do a good job of explaining what the culture is and what the environment is.

Pete Newsome 54:04
I saw the job description the other day, that said, must be a good culture fit with no explanation of what the culture was. And, you could probably look on online right now and see a few similar job descriptions. And because we just take these words for granted now, right? We do and we shouldn’t you shouldn’t take anything for granted.

Pete Newsome 54:27
As an employer interviewing as a recruiter, interviewing and screening candidates, and as a candidate. I mean, it’s your obligation. I strongly believe to ask those questions that will allow you to make a decision about whether it’s a place you’d want to work not just a job you’d want to do, or you can do or compensation that you’d be willing to accept. But this is a place where you’re going to want to show up every day and vice versa.

Pete Newsome 54:55
Is the employer Are you hiring someone who understands it? Because if you don’t do a good enough job portraying what life is really like and shame on you. As an employer, you deserve to have a high turnover. And so I think I think you have to share the bad along with the good you know, in a lot of people are afraid to share the bad because they’ll think well then people won’t apply.

Ricky Baez 55:20
Good, because those are not the people you want to employ. The right person eventually will come along again, consistency is always key when it comes to that.

Pete Newsome 55:29
Yes, yes, but yes, that’s its own show. So, on that note, I think we should end our way longer than I thought we would. I thought this was going to be a 10-minute show Ricky though.

Ricky Baez 55:43
I have fun today Pete I’m never bored here. You know that well, good.

Pete Newsome 55:47
You’re not bored so we can cross out one off the list. Awesome. Well, if you’ve listened this far, thank you and it’s been great to do this today. This has been fun and you know, as always, we want to hear your questions and comments.

Pete Newsome 56:10
So Hirecalling@4cornerresources.com Please reach out we’re due for a q&a session very soon. So we’ll do that. In the next week or two and Ricky, thanks so much, man.

Ricky Baez 56:21
Thank you have a good one. Drive safe and enjoy this beautiful November bye everyone weather again.

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